Advice for Dynon

Austinswill

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After seeing SKyview HDX I got all googly eyed... especially at the price that is typically posted below it on various sites. However that fantasy is quickly dashed once you open the pricing worksheet. Typically the price first seen is around 4300.00. However after opening the worksheet and doing the bare minimum, that price nearly triples. This is quite off putting, at least to me.

The other advice I have for Dynon is to come up with a solution to integrate with legacy autopilots. Not doing so drastically drives up the cost of entry into Dynon infrastructure. The cost to purchase the AP and the installation of it drives cost of entry up probably around 10 -12k dollars. Admittedly, this is reasonable for an AP, but remember this is atop the 13k + install one would be spending to get the Sky view. Spending that much when one already has a functioning AP is foolish. If Dynon offered integration with lagacy AP's, it would not only GREATLY reduce the cost of entry into Dynon products for those with legacy AP's, but would also secure future Dynon AP upgrades as these old AP's fail.

I don't think Dynon realizes how competitive this would make them. There are tons of aircraft out there that have legacy AP's and would greatly benefit with skyview. ESPECIALLY since it has engine monitoring. An EDM 900 cost around $9000.00 to purchase and install. An ASPEN that works with legacy AP's is over 12k to purchase and install. Dynon Skyview is 13k + install and gives a better EFIS than ASPEN, incorporates engine monitoring and has a clear path to upgrades.

I am a prime candidate for Skyview... and I WANT it.... yet I cannot justify it. Instead I will be installing an EDM 900 and waiting out my current AP and when it fails going with a Garmin solution. Simply because I can do this in stages and end up with a nice cockpit. It wont be as nice as a Skyview package, but I can do it in stages.

If SKyview HDX would work with my KFC150, I would buy it today.
 

airguy

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You said - The cost to purchase the AP and the installation of it drives cost of entry up probably around 10 -12k dollars. Admittedly, this is reasonable for an AP, but remember this is atop the 13k + install one would be spending to get the Sky view.

Skyview, whether the Classic, Touch, or HDX, all contain the software to drive the autopilot. The Dynon servos are $825 each, with two needed, for a total of $1650 for the hardware to add an autopilot to any Skyview installation. If you have an installation shop quoting you ten grand to install that pair of servos, you need a new shop - not a new hardware vendor. Where are you getting those numbers from?
 

DBRV10

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And if you go Garmin it will be even more expensive....plus the EDM.

I might be a bit blunt, and some may get offended but you really need to look at this properly.

Also understand what it would take and degrade the product, by supporting all these legacy things......you wish list is never ending and not viable. The prices then would be astronomical.

I am on the other side of the planet probably so its not easy to have a phone call, but i am happy to educate if you can accomodate.
 

Garrett

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Dynon does not charge for database or software upgrades and over time that is a big savings $.
 

Austinswill

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And if you go Garmin it will be even more expensive....plus the EDM.

I might be a bit blunt, and some may get offended but you really need to look at this properly.

Also understand what it would take and degrade the product, by supporting all these legacy things......you wish list is never ending and not viable. The prices then would be astronomical.

I am on the other side of the planet probably so its not easy to have a phone call, but i am happy to educate if you can accommodate.

I dont need you to educate me... I have spent a LOT of time researching this as it applies to ME and my aircraft. You dont know anything about me or my aircraft so how is it that you know what would be best for my situation? Must be nice to be omniscient.

Degrade the product? How would producing a unit to make the legacy AP's and skyview talk to one another degrade the product? At the worst the AP wouldn't fly as precise as a digital one, but I dont think anyone would expect that. They would however enjoy getting started with Dynon for 15K+ less with the option to upgrade in the future.... Do you understand what a BARRIER TO ENTRY is ?

As far as going the other route....

EDM900 - 9k installed
G5 for ADI - 3k installed
GFC500 AP - 14k installed.

So, that's 26k installed.. AND I can do the EDM900 now, get a clean panel and have good (probably better than Dynon) engine monitoring. I can fly my existing AP and ADI for probably a few years and then spring for the garmin AP and ADI.

A single screen Dynon package with AP is 25.5k, 2 screen 30.5k... BEFORE installation, which will probably run around 10-15k. So... how is it that going garmin is MORE expensive again? Maybe YOU need the education.
 
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Austinswill

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You said - The cost to purchase the AP and the installation of it drives cost of entry up probably around 10 -12k dollars. Admittedly, this is reasonable for an AP, but remember this is atop the 13k + install one would be spending to get the Sky view.

Skyview, whether the Classic, Touch, or HDX, all contain the software to drive the autopilot. The Dynon servos are $825 each, with two needed, for a total of $1650 for the hardware to add an autopilot to any Skyview installation. If you have an installation shop quoting you ten grand to install that pair of servos, you need a new shop - not a new hardware vendor. Where are you getting those numbers from?

Dynons pricing worksheet shows the AP setup adding $6000.00.

at 100.00 /hr labor rates these days.... Do you really think 40-60 hours to remove the old AP and install the new one is that far off?
 

swatson999

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The cost to purchase the AP and the installation of it drives cost of entry up probably around 10 -12k dollars.
BEFORE installation, which will probably run around 10-15k.

Where are you getting these figures? Because now you're saying

Dynons pricing worksheet shows the AP setup adding $6000.00.

As noted...what airplane are you talking about here? Presumably it's a certified one, which just makes me ever more happy that I built my own EAB, loaded up with Dynon equipment, for a lot less than you seem to be pricing out for *any* of your options. But I digress....

What plane, what equipment *exactly*, what are the subtotals on the worksheet, and what mechanic are you going to that's taking a week to uninstall 2 servos and install two new ones?
 

airguy

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Dynons pricing worksheet shows the AP setup adding $6000.00.

at 100.00 /hr labor rates these days.... Do you really think 40-60 hours to remove the old AP and install the new one is that far off?

Are you talking about a certified aircraft or experimental? Which airplane? You're asking a lot of questions but not giving any data to work with. You've already declared that you're not going to install Dynon equipment, but yet you're demanding answers about it and trying to get Dynon to change their business model to fit you? And yes, I would consider 40-60 hours to R/R a pair of servos to be excessive, by any shop.
 

Austinswill

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Where are you getting these figures? Because now you're saying



As noted...what airplane are you talking about here? Presumably it's a certified one, which just makes me ever more happy that I built my own EAB, loaded up with Dynon equipment, for a lot less than you seem to be pricing out for *any* of your options. But I digress....

What plane, what equipment *exactly*, what are the subtotals on the worksheet, and what mechanic are you going to that's taking a week to uninstall 2 servos and install two new ones?
Where are you getting these figures? Because now you're saying



As noted...what airplane are you talking about here? Presumably it's a certified one, which just makes me ever more happy that I built my own EAB, loaded up with Dynon equipment, for a lot less than you seem to be pricing out for *any* of your options. But I digress....

What plane, what equipment *exactly*, what are the subtotals on the worksheet, and what mechanic are you going to that's taking a week to uninstall 2 servos and install two new ones?

Yes, experimental is great. I have an experimental as well and it is quite nice to throw what I want to on it. However I also own a Mooney rocket which is a great aircraft and cost less than any experimental I could have built or purchased with similar performance.

Obviously there is not a worksheet for Dynon on a Mooney with AP, because it is not available yet. So using the worksheet for the V35 bonanza is what I have to work with.

Also, you guys know well and good that the AP is more than just unplugging 2 servos and putting in 2 new ones. Wires have to be run, which could mean a belly pan or interior removal. Also, there are likely mounting brackets that have to be installed and who knows what else.

I think you have misread what I am posting... The install price estimates included ALL of the Dynon system. There are engine sensors to R&R,. Instrument panel to be redone, Old AP to be removed new one to go in ECT.

Given that putting in an EDM 900 alone is about 3500-4k in labor and has all the same sensors as dynon, AND no panel redo is required, I dont think my estimate is that far off. But, since you insist I am way off...

YOU TELL ME how much having a complete panel redo, all old engine monitor removed and replaced with Dynon sensors on a 6 cylinder engine with a turbo and to have the Old AP removed and new Dynon AP installed.

As far as the pricing worksheet... V35, single screen, with AP and engine monitoring comes to a total of 25,572.00

So, lets say that the cost of the panel rework and installation was only 5,000 dollars ( not a chance though) that brings the total to over 30k. This is more than the solution I will likely go with, but the kicker is that to go with dynon, I have to spend all the money NOW and yank out perfectly working equipment. With the other route, I can ease into it, starting with 9k for the EDM900 and then down the road another 15k for a Garmin AP and G5. The timing matters too... The only reason I would pull the trigger on the AP would be because my KFC 150 fails or the KI256 is due for OH (4,000.00) So at that point a new AP makes sense. When all of that stuff is going strong, it does not.

I really am baffled as to why you guys are seeming so hostile. I have not attacked Dynon at all here. I have simply pointed out why I wont be going with them even though I really like what they are doing. I simply will not be dropping 30k all at once on my aircraft that currently has perfectly serviceability equipment. There are lots of other manufacturers that have made their products work with Legacy autopilots specifically because of large quantity of people that still fly them and would otherwise not buy their product, see Aspen.

If Dynon was to have legacy AP support, I would be a buyer TODAY and likely purchase the AP upgrade down the line. Dismiss me if you want, but that is the way it is.

It also may be possible that should some of my equipment fail before I have done anything that dynon will make a bit more sense, assuming the AP is even available for mooney at the time.
 

Austinswill

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Are you talking about a certified aircraft or experimental? Which airplane? You're asking a lot of questions but not giving any data to work with. You've already declared that you're not going to install Dynon equipment, but yet you're demanding answers about it and trying to get Dynon to change their business model to fit you? And yes, I would consider 40-60 hours to R/R a pair of servos to be excessive, by any shop.

Where did I demand answers? I made a suggestion to Dynon, which they can take or leave. They certainly dont have to listen to me, and probably wont... But I spend a lot of time on mooney discussion boards and I know I am not the only one that would like to keep flying my perfectly working legacy autopilot. A lot of people will go with products that are inferior to Skyview simply because they can upgrade sooner than later by not spending money to replace the AP at the same time. Look at what Garmin just released... clearly they understand this.

Since Dynon is moving to support Mooney and load of bonanzas are probably in the same boat, I thought they might like a suggestion from a potential customer.

Why does suggesting supporting legacy autopilots rub all of you the wrong way? It would only lead to more sales and more growth for Dynon.
 
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Austinswill

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FIY, I made some calls to Dynon Certified installers. The cost varied quite a bit likely due to shop rates.

However, the hours remained pretty well the same

Basic system 40-50 hours no AP
Engine monitoring 25 hours
Autopilot 30 hours.

The most expensive shop said 12,000 USD not including AP install. Using the lower cost per hour shops:

Roughly 100 hours labor for the Full suite, plus a bit more for the panel rework.. those estimates were from 1500.00 to 3000.00

100 hours labor @75.00 is 7500 + 1500 for panel equals 10,000.00

100 hours labor @100.00 an hr labor that is 10,000 + 1500 = 11,500

Single screen unit + engine monitoring + AP = 25,500.00 + 10,000~11,500 = $35,000- $36,500.00

If the legacy AP was supported, the cost of entry would be reduced by 6000.00 + 3000.00 (labor) bringing the cost of entry down to 24,000- 25,500.00

I originally said the AP drives the cost up by 10-12k.. sorry I was wrong, it is only 9k more for the AP /rollseyes
 

RVDan

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Why not just do a single display, with ADAHRS, EMS and sensors for now? You can leave your current avionics installed, just replace the round gages with a display with EMS. Then you can add AP in the future, as well as other options. The only part I don’t know is if the Dynon STC would allow that configuration. In general Dynon only has I/O for digital data, either serial or 429. I don’t know if they output their GPS deviation data on the serial bus. If you really want to keep your AP that should be doable though. Let’s say you have a GTN or GNS GPS. You can put that into Dynon to display, and the AP will still get data directly from the GPS. The vertical modes of altitude preselect, hold and airspeed would still be from the original air data source. Heading might be an issue if it got heading from the original HSI, but maybe you could keep that cross side to provide that data. No command bars though.
 

Austinswill

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Why not just do a single display, with ADAHRS, EMS and sensors for now? You can leave your current avionics installed, just replace the round gages with a display with EMS. Then you can add AP in the future, as well as other options. The only part I don’t know is if the Dynon STC would allow that configuration. In general Dynon only has I/O for digital data, either serial or 429. I don’t know if they output their GPS deviation data on the serial bus. If you really want to keep your AP that should be doable though. Let’s say you have a GTN or GNS GPS. You can put that into Dynon to display, and the AP will still get data directly from the GPS. The vertical modes of altitude preselect, hold and airspeed would still be from the original air data source. Heading might be an issue if it got heading from the original HSI, but maybe you could keep that cross side to provide that data. No command bars though.

I believe the only way that is possible is to keep the KI256 so it can drive the AP. I have seen it done with other electronic ADI solutions, but I am not certain it would be a legal installation.
 

RVDan

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I’ve done many hybrid installations in business jets, when the owner doesn’t want to pony up for the full nut. I know nothing about the Dynon STC but I can’t imagine they would require someone to install the full Monty. Maybe worth checking it out. You definitely need to keep the KI256, but it could be moved to the side of the Skyview display. Skyview will take the nav info from a GARMIN navigator And display it, so you could eliminate a stand alone CDI with Skyview. Lots to think about to determine if it is doable.
 

Austinswill

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Sounds like you've got it all figured out, and Dynon doesn't work for you. Not sure why you're here arguing about it...:rolleyes:

Ohh, you are one of those types... come into a thread and start an argument... then accuse the person you started arguing with of being the one wanting to argue.

I didn't start this thread to argue... I started it so that perhaps Dynon might consider what I had to say and possibly open op the product line to many many people that may be in my shoes.

And yes, thank you, I do have it quite figured out.
 

swatson999

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I didn't start this thread to argue... I started it so that perhaps Dynon might consider what I had to say and possibly open op the product line to many many people that may be in my shoes.

And you did, and Dynon said thanks for the feedback. When some here said wow, that seems like it's a tad high (a whole workweek to replace two servos, e.g.), you blasted them ("You tell me how much..."), etc. Much like you're doing now.

I'm sure a lot of folks empathize with you trying to upgrade a certified plane, it being pretty expensive and all, but that's kind of the game you're in with them. If a shop says 40 hours at 100 per, well, you can take it to a different shop, or do some of the work yourself if they'll let you, or skip the install. Or go with another vendor that better suits your needs and wallet. Your choice.

But that's not necessarily a reason for Dynon to figure out how to support every model of AP servo that's already out there on the market. I, and I'm sure many people here, would rather they spend their R&D money adding new features like the newer ADS-B weather data, or full-up VNAV for entire an flight plan, or whatever it is, than go out and try to make their system work with Brand X 30-year-old servos in someone's Mooney.

And whoever said aviation is a cheap hobby, anyway? You're in the certified world, where everything costs about 5X what it should, to begin with. The fact that Dynon is playing in that domain at all, let alone at the low cost for components they are, is a wonder.
 

Austinswill

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And you did, and Dynon said thanks for the feedback. When some here said wow, that seems like it's a tad high (a whole workweek to replace two servos, e.g.), you blasted them ("You tell me how much..."), etc. Much like you're doing now.

I'm sure a lot of folks empathize with you trying to upgrade a certified plane, it being pretty expensive and all, but that's kind of the game you're in with them. If a shop says 40 hours at 100 per, well, you can take it to a different shop, or do some of the work yourself if they'll let you, or skip the install. Or go with another vendor that better suits your needs and wallet. Your choice.

But that's not necessarily a reason for Dynon to figure out how to support every model of AP servo that's already out there on the market. I, and I'm sure many people here, would rather they spend their R&D money adding new features like the newer ADS-B weather data, or full-up VNAV for entire an flight plan, or whatever it is, than go out and try to make their system work with Brand X 30-year-old servos in someone's Mooney.

And whoever said aviation is a cheap hobby, anyway? You're in the certified world, where everything costs about 5X what it should, to begin with. The fact that Dynon is playing in that domain at all, let alone at the low cost for components they are, is a wonder.

ok, I see... when someone comes along and tells me the numbers I said are wrong, they arent blasting me... but when I respond to their questions and provide evidence that I was pretty darned close, I am blasting them.

Do you realize that I was directly asked about where I was getting the numbers, multiple times?

Do you realize that some told me I was "not looking at this properly" and that they could educate me"

All of the post I made, save for the first, were in direct response to things I was ASKED.... I then get accused of coming here to argue and blasting those who disagreed with me.

Why don't you go re read the thread and then tell me who blasted who.

I'm out. I actually regret even coming to this forum. Most seem to just want to tell me how wrong and ignorant I am for doing my research and deciding the Skyview system I would love to have just doesn't make financial sense. Then I get accused of just wanting to argue and blasting people... neither of which is true.
peace.
 
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