AP76 delivery

[DBRV10]

A little birdie tells me the AP76 release may now be some way off due to the concentrated efforts on the new gen panels.

I can understand that this is something of strong demand however its very disappointing to me, and anyone else hanging out for the AP76. :'( I will now take up the option of the AP74 and do an exchange/upgrade later for the AP76, however I had hoped it would be available by May 09.

Can we have some detailed explaination of what the status is of this project and a likely release time frame (month). I know its not always possible to be very specific, but a general idea would be nice so we can plan around the delays.

Thanks!

David

 

[Brantel]

Dynon,

Those of us that may be molding our decision of what AP to purchase may need a response to this statement....

Where is the development of the AP76?

 

[DBRV10]

I agree Brantel..... however without pushing the knife in a twisting, I have noticed there have been no other posts by the DS folk!

Maybe too much Presidential Partying going on there!

I have a friend who lives close by.......might have to arrange a visit!! ;D

I am sure we will get a response soon enough, although I would REALLY appreciate a thorough one not a generic .... "This Summer" kind of reply.

Planning os one thing but freight and so forth, customs etc etc is another, especially Downunder!

Thanks

DB

 

[dynonsupport]

Guys, sorry for being silent for so long, the answer to this question is a bit complex. We wanted to touch base now to make sure you knew we weren't ignoring it. But we have to answer with a non-answer, at least for the moment. We will be reviewing things to make sure we get you the clarity you need, should be next week.

 

[Brantel]

Thanks for letting us know to expect an answer soon. Better than no answer!

 

[Brantel]

Any news yet?

 

[dynonsupport]

Thanks for your patience on this. Delays getting the initial autopilot release out the door have backed up our schedule a bit. As a result, we've had to make some hard decisions in order to get the next generation out in a reasonable timeframe.

With software development winding down on current generation we've decided that the majority of our resources for the forseeable future needs to be heavily concentrated on the next generation product line. We will still be releasing firmware version 5.1 for the current product line which adds several improvements to the Autopilot. However, AP76 development is on hold for the foreseeable future.

As far as future autopilot development is concerned, our current plan is to to bring the next generation products to the level of capability that exists in our current autopilot. When we reach that milestone and move forward with more advanced autopilot features, we will re-evaluate our product mix and determine whether it makes sense to restart AP76 development, or whether we should offer those features exclusively on the next generation product line. Realistically, this means that the AP76 will not reach the market before the end of 2009.

In the meantime, we WILL continue to add additional airplane support through Dynon-produced mounting kits and the release of capstan servos (for cable-drive aircraft). We will also continue to support and troubleshoot the Autopilot and all other current products at the level our customers have come to expect.

 

[DBRV10]

we will re-evaluate our product mix and determine whether it makes sense to restart AP76 development, or whether we should offer those features exclusively on the next generation product line. Realistically, this means that the AP76 will not reach the market before the end of 2009.

Thanks for the feedback and your answer is 95% of exactly what I had discussed with the Horsham Aviation folk here in Oz!

However!!!! the little bit at the end of your statement makes me want to go looking for a lawyer! The A/P product launch clearly showed and described the AP76 alongside the D100 platform, so we have designed a complete RV-10 panel and system around this product knowing it was coming down the track. We did this rather than using another available A/P with V/nav capability, because we are committed Dynon supporters. To be denied the AP76 now would make us very   and we would be taking this up with the CEO of course. We do not mind waiting and swapping the AP74 later, but to get this far and not ever have the functions we were promised is a bit too much to swallow.

I do expect and will look forward to a reply that confirms that it will be available for D100 series use down the track, and I assume this is really your intentions.

Regards
David

 

[Brantel]

we will re-evaluate our product mix and determine whether it makes sense to restart AP76 development, or whether we should offer those features exclusively on the next generation product line. Realistically, this means that the AP76 will not reach the market before the end of 2009.

BAD MOVE DYNON!

This decision leaves me with a feeling of complete shock!

I can't even describe the feelings I have right now regarding this decision.

People have invested in your autopilot based on the promises that were posted with the initial release.  People trusted Dynon and now look what your doing to this trust!

I just got finished cutting my panel with your AP in mind!  Without the AP76, your AP loses most of the high end features that sold me on your solution.

Your own website is still continuing to promise the AP76 and its advanced features...THAT WORK WITH THE CURRENT PRODUCTS!  Might want to get that false advertising off your website and let your resellers know to stop selling these core features!

 

[PhantomPholly]

I have a TruTrack, but this outcome I believe was predictable.

A while back I was incredulous when they announced that the new DSAB would not be backwards-compatible with (read: support) the older units.  As a person who has held every possible position in the software development lifecycle, I recognize the symptoms of an insurmountable architecture problem.  To quote an old saying, "I've seen how this turns out, and it isn't pretty."

Odds are the person who did the original design is long gone, and the management is stuck dealing with a poor design.  Or, it would simply cost too much to include a "legacy DSAB port" on the new units.  Whatever the reasons, Dynon's ambitions exceeded their ability to deliver, and the changing economy alters the original estimates of Return on Investment upon which they optimistically believed certain development efforts were worth their while.  In any event, I believe that this brick wall imposed by their legacy DSAB is probably more to blame than the ultimate difficulties of delivering the advanced autopilot features - for the simple reason that they no longer feel they can make a good business case for the "backwards development" to add those features to a soon-to-be obsolete line of equipment.

Please don't be too hard on them.  Management makes marketing promises based on promises made to them (at least sometimes). Well, for that matter Marketing has been known to tell some whoppers.  But the reality is that over 50% of software projects still fail - and Dynon has done a very good job of delivering 98% of what they promised.

 

[PhantomPholly]

Special note to Dynon:

It seems like the traffic on this board is down since this announcement.

One way you might recover gracefully from this, err, change of position would be to make the current DSAB code available to interested members of the community, along with what would be needed to make it interface with the new DSAB.

There are a lot of smart people in this community - and someone might be willing to pitch in and write the code / create an interface for you to make this little problem "go away..." That could be a win-win at no cost to you, and might even result in extended life for your current line.

Just a thought.

 

[dynonsupport]

Thank you to everyone writing on the forum to express their concern about the AP76. Dynon has always attempted to be transparent with our customers. Our primary goal with our announcement was to communicate substantial delays to the AP76 development. Too often companies have left people hanging with ambiguity and we did not want to do that. If the demand is there when we are able to commit resources to it, we will produce an AP76. We feel that there is a good chance that the demand may diminish over time, and thus, may result in little demand for an AP76. We actually are not trying to answer that question at this point in time, we are merely communicating to all of you exactly what our thinking is so you can plan accordingly and trust Dynon. Ironically, we were trying to build trust, not lose it.

We will absolutely develop an autopilot with the advanced features we have advertised (and at a great price). We have the expertise, it is in our master plan, and it will be a great product.

Dynon hasn't changed. We have the same people, values and innovation we always have had. I am very excited about the products we will be adding to our product offering and am confident that customers will have many options available to them that they will be excited about too. I have been with the company since it started in 2000 as one of the first four employees. We built the company on the premise that we will make fantastic products at great prices and always take care of you, our customer. This philosophy has been successful, so to deviate from that now would be just plain stupid. But I ask that you allow us a chance to prove it through this difficult transition. We will prove that we continue to put the customer first. I will give away free stuff if I have to! Don't get any ideas . The bottom line is as long as we keep providing great products at great prices you want Dynon to be a healthy thriving company in 5 years just like we are today. This decision to stall development on the AP76 helps that.

Do I wish we would have waited to announce the AP76? Yes. But we hope you consider our AP74 autopilot to be the best on the market given the features you get for the price, even without the AP76 in the picture. Another irony in all this is that the Dynon autopilot is a wonderful example of how well we supported existing customers/products. All you need to do is buy servos (and AP74 if you wish), and viola! You've got a great autopilot. Believe me, it wasn't easy putting it on our existing product line, but we wanted to support all the customers that have purchased our EFIS products over the last many years. It was better for them... it was better for Dynon.

So as the COO of the company I want you to know that we are pushing full steam ahead on some pretty great things. One of the great joys I have at Dynon is meeting ecstatic customers at air shows that tell us how happy they are with their Dynon product. Our (growing) team is working hard to make that continue.

So as I wind down this speech I want to say thank you for caring enough to express your frustration. I would be much more concerned if no one cared. That said, I would be happy to talk further with anyone who has questions, or needs a sounding board.

Nick Bogner
VP & COO
Dynon Avionics
425.527.1436

 

[DBRV10]

Gooday from Oz Nick and I appreciate your frank and honest reply.

I do believe that when you develop the firmware/software for the new panels this same electronics and code can be applied to the current spec AP74 to be the AP76, I am sure that was the intention.

So to be frank there will be demand for the AP76, and I do not for one minute think it will impede sales of the new SV panels. People who want a D100 system will not buy the SV panel just to get V/Nav. I think it would start a flood of negative sentiment from some which can spread......... and I caution all that are reading this......this is not a slagging of Dynon, but some very good feedback from loyal customers and hopefully Dynon can deliver. I do commend them for at least being drawn into the discussion which is more than most companies will ever do.

Now here is the fatal flaw and Dynon I must say you dohave this one thing wrong in the way you go to Market. You do not seem to take Backorders. I do not know of any company that does this apart from Dynon. It bothers me because you can try to estimate demand, but there could be 500 customers watching this thread now wanting AP76 and giving up and walking away? Now maybe you do know......but I seriously doubt it. Often you dont know what you do not know!

We ordered back in June or July a full set of D100/D180/HS34/AP76 and Servo's through Horsham Aviation, the local agents, but it was not till much later that we realised they could hold a back order but you were not accepting orders till product was available. So its quite likely for example that all the early production went to customers who came along and ordered at the last minute and I missed out. In fact I still do not have my Servo's or an AP74.....let alone the 76. This is not fair play. Lucky I am not in need just yet! The servos were to be delivered just recently untill I picked up on the fact Dynon sent 32's not 42's so thats another delay and issue, but not killing us just yet!

So Nick....again thank you for your response, thank you for fantastic products...... just send Santa with a sack of AP76's next Christmas would ya!

I might get up early and give you a call next week!

Cheers

David Brown

 

[lwhitlow]

Nick

While I appreciate your candor and willingness to share product plans with the community, I feel you are creating a situation that does not serve anyone well.

In this kind of a business, its all about trust. None of us want to purchase a high tech software driven product, without some belief that the company that made it will be around to keep it going. Dynon has done well in this regard, and shown how you keep supporting the products you've produced. The evolution from the D-10 to the 10A to the 100 has been well handled by Dynon and most customers are very, very happy with the product.

Now in a relatively short time frame you have dropped two bits of news that rattle the userbase and make them wonder if your professed commitment to the current product is going to last.

First you told us the DSAB in Next-Gen is not going to be compatible with the current one and none of the current products will work with the Next-Gen except the the AP servos. In high tech products like these, every designer is forced to abandon ties with legacy products. Its a fact, and Dynon bears no blame in doing this with the Next-Gen product. But it signals a hard end of the line for anything else new for the current line.

Secondly now you tell us that you are not doing development on the AP-76 and will only pick it up if the demand is there.  You announced the AP-76 many months ago and I for one based my decision to purchase Dynon EFIS and EMS based on this. I even have a hole in my panel cut for the AP-76.

I went ahead and purchased my EFIS-100, EMS-120, HS-34 almost a year before I needed them and AFTER your announcement of development of the Next-Gen, because I trusted Dynon statements about what was still going to be done for the existing product line.

I didn't want to wait for the next gen, and in posts here you said don't wait for the Next-Gen, When its ready we will ship it, Fair-nuff

But I never believed you would fail to deliver an announced product, I believed that Dynon would honor its announcement, and its advertising and make the AP-76

You kind of have me over a barrel here, I like what I have, I'll make do with the AP-74, but now my view of Dynon is different. Untill now I would have bought a Next-Gen and replaced my setup in my plane in a couple of years, or bought a Next-Gen for my next project, without even looking at another product. Not anymore, How can I ever believe that you will make all of the parts you promise, before you move on to the Next-Next-Gen?

Be clear  I'm drawing the line at delivering a product you show in literature, call by name, and define functionality. You guys have made a lot of statements about things for the Next-Gen, but since its all fluid and you have made few definitive statements about hardware and software for the Next-Gen, if something gets left out at this point, it's a whole different kettle of fish, than what you are doing with the AP-76

Some of this damage to your otherwise strong reputation is done, and cannot be rectified by simply changing course again and making the AP-76, but it would help. You have a large user base in a small market, we don't want to feel like we're just getting left behind in your march to the future.  We brought you here, We bought your products. We are the buyers of your future products

Finish the D-1XXX program.
Deliver what you promised and complete the line for the Best Value in Avionics.
Make me feel confident that my decision to support Dynon and put your equipment in my airplane was the right choice

Build THE AP-76!!

Larry Whitlow
601XL Jabiru 3300
All DYNON Glass Panel

Thank you to everyone writing on the forum to express their concern about the AP76. Dynon has always attempted to be transparent with our customers. Our primary goal with our announcement was to communicate substantial delays to the AP76 development. Too often companies have left people hanging with ambiguity and we did not want to do that. If the demand is there when we are able to commit resources to it, we will produce an AP76. We feel that there is a good chance that the demand may diminish over time, and thus, may result in little demand for an AP76. We actually are not trying to answer that question at this point in time, we are merely communicating to all of you exactly what our thinking is so you can plan accordingly and trust Dynon. Ironically, we were trying to build trust, not lose it.

We will absolutely develop an autopilot with the advanced features we have advertised (and at a great price). We have the expertise, it is in our master plan, and it will be a great product.

Dynon hasn't changed. We have the same people, values and innovation we always have had. I am very excited about the products we will be adding to our product offering and am confident that customers will have many options available to them that they will be excited about too. I have been with the company since it started in 2000 as one of the first four employees. We built the company on the premise that we will make fantastic products at great prices and always take care of you, our customer. This philosophy has been successful, so to deviate from that now would be just plain stupid. But I ask that you allow us a chance to prove it through this difficult transition. We will prove that we continue to put the customer first. I will give away free stuff if I have to! Don't get any ideas . The bottom line is as long as we keep providing great products at great prices you want Dynon to be a healthy thriving company in 5 years just like we are today. This decision to stall development on the AP76 helps that.

Do I wish we would have waited to announce the AP76? Yes. But we hope you consider our AP74 autopilot to be the best on the market given the features you get for the price, even without the AP76 in the picture. Another irony in all this is that the Dynon autopilot is a wonderful example of how well we supported existing customers/products. All you need to do is buy servos (and AP74 if you wish), and viola! You've got a great autopilot. Believe me, it wasn't easy putting it on our existing product line, but we wanted to support all the customers that have purchased our EFIS products over the last many years. It was better for them... it was better for Dynon.

So as the COO of the company I want you to know that we are pushing full steam ahead on some pretty great things. One of the great joys I have at Dynon is meeting ecstatic customers at air shows that tell us how happy they are with their Dynon product. Our (growing) team is working hard to make that continue.

So as I wind down this speech I want to say thank you for caring enough to express your frustration. I would be much more concerned if no one cared. That said, I would be happy to talk further with anyone who has questions, or needs a sounding board.

Nick Bogner
VP & COO
Dynon Avionics
425.527.1436

 

[dynonsupport]

A few comments:

We're frankly surprised by people's concern that DSAB is not cross-compatible . The only real data sources that exist today on DSAB are an EFIS or an EMS. You'll be able to trade in your current EFIS or EMS and get a new EFIS or EMS module for less than the trade in value. Given that you have to rework a panel for the next gen anyway, and you probably don't want a bunch of non-redundant data sources cluttering your panel, it seems that customers would prefer to move to the new system wholesale given that there is no financial hit to not being able to keep the current EFIS and EMS products.

On top of that, the new EMS and EFIS modules will perform better and the EMS will be more flexible. The newer DSAB system is fully redundant and allows remote modules to be powered by the battery backed up screen. So there are some nice advantages.

As was pointed out, we made the servos compatible with both systems, so we are only asking you to swap devices that are really getting an upgrade in the new system.

Just like we had to change hardware and make some breaks between the D10 and the D10A, the same will happen with the next gen system, but just like the D10 to D10A transition, we are giving our customers credit for previously purchased products. I don't think there is a single other EFIS manufacturer out there that will give you credit for hardware you bought 6 years ago, but Dynon will. Dynon supports their past customers much, much more than any other company in this market.

As for having anyone over a barrel, we don't, and Dynon never will. As we said, if you purchased our system based on the promise of an AP76, give us a call or an email. We're happy to work with you and see if there is anything we can do for you, especially if next-gen is now your preferred platform.

As people can plainly see, developing a new system is a huge undertaking. It's not something we can do in 6 months. Because of this, it should be clear that Dynon can't do something like this more than once every large number of years, or we would never recover our R&D expenses. So next-next gen is at least 5 years away. We would never put such a huge effort into a product that we could only sell for a few years. Remember that the current EFIS product has been shipping since August of 2004, so it's well over 5 years old already and still has a lot of life left, and the guy that bought the first EFIS D10A in 2004 still has all the same features that someone that buys a D100 today does, without spending a single penny on upgrades.

In terms of pre-orders, we have never taken them and never will, and we encourage our dealers to never do so as well. It's actually common with the more reputable manufacturers in this market and taking pre-orders is probably an exception, not a rule. Pre-orders aren't actually a good sign of demand because few people take advantage of them (who wants to give a company $2K for a product that is 6-12 months out?) and they can actually make a company feel like demand is lower than it really is if the orders don't flood in.

We have been shipping all AP equipment off the shelf since the day we started shipping back in November. We've never had any shipping delays with that equipment. Because of this, the order in which people placed their orders was never relevant. If your stuff isn't there yet or was delayed, it was delayed because we didn't get the order, not because we didn't have product to ship. We are very sorry if we did receive an order for an SV42 yet shipped an SV32.

--Ian

 

[lwhitlow]

To the Dynon Staff

I have just been out in the shop looking for a good place to install the OAT sensor and sorting out the CHT / EGT install, and i have thought more about the whole issue and I'd like to clarify and amplify a few points.

Text is such a difficult medium to convey the tone of a conversation, It was not my intention to sound harsh or angry or upset. If any of the fine folks at Dynon took my words that way, let me please apologize, I certainly would not want to make thing rough on you guys. Again I'm sorry if I upset anyone.  :-[

First I'm not mad here and I certainly don't want to bash Dynon. What we have gotten are great products and great prices for those goodies. Additionally I think that as Ian mentioned Dynon does a lot with the resources they have, and this is what enables them to give us great value.

We all knew that as Dynon moved on to new products (next-gen) that the D-1XX line would have no more development. Again Fair-nuff, they still committed to keep selling the product as long as the demand was there, but like any company (I know I run a technology based company) you have to make new things or simply go away.

As to Ian's reference about the DSAB bus, its not the fact that its changing, we know it has to to further your product goals, that's great, it is simply a very visible sign to us the users that the architecture we are using will end and we will get nothing new. Its not a bad thing, it is simply a marker in time, a reference point if you will. If we have all we need for that architecture then it doesn't matter. This is my basis for my concern over the AP-76, if is doesn't get in the development pipeline now then it never will. Logic will force you to answer the question of why you should develop anything for a EOL platform.

This is why I would implore you to finish what you started.

It had to be your intention to create the AP-76 in order to compete with other competitors products. While yes you are correct the Dynon with the AP-74 is a GREAT value for the dollars, and few even come close to the cost benefit of the Dynon, It isn't where you wanted the product to end. That's why you planned and announced the AP-76 to begin with.

Its my opinion  (and we all know what opinions are like  ;D ) that if you defer development on the AP-76 untill the Next-Gen is out and then evaluate the demand, the unit will NEVER get to production.

Let me explain. Without a projected date for the unit, Interested buyers will wait until the functionality exists in the Next-Gen and then purchase the Next-Gen, meaning no need for the AP-76. Also buyers that might have purchased the D-1xx series will wait untill the last possible moment before purchasing, hoping that the Next-Gen will ship before they have to commit to an installation in the aircraft.

People like me, who are quite happy with the Dynon system right now will probably not upgrade our current aircraft the Next-Gen just to get the AP-76 functionality  (but some might upgrade because of the new feature set of the whole unit), so we just make do with what we have.
So the very act of not committing to the AP-76 is going to kill any demand for it. I'm sure you're all familiar with Catch 22

Also as you can see most of us will wait patiently if we know its coming. So, if you have to revise the timetable for delivery, because your resources are all involved with the Next-Gen, OK, we can understand that.  My concern, and I'm sure its the concern of others here is the fact that your not committing to us, the Dynon user base, that while we may delay it, It will get made and it will get in your hands.

I was always sure that once the AP was done in the D1xx line, new development for the line was over.  Bug fixes or feature tweaking would be all that would be done until you no longer sold the product. That day will come soon enough, either because you can't get the parts to build them or the demand just doesn't support it any more, that there will be no more new D1xx units. Its called the product life cycle, and just like getting old and taxes, you can't stop it, you can only slow it down for a bit.

But until then the D1xx series and the Next-Gen can be sold side by side, Each one servicing a users price/benefit point.

In closing, Its a GREAT product, one I'm happy to own and use. I only ask again that you finish what you started and promoted and advertised.

Commit to and build the AP-76

And on another note to the folks at Dynon, it was a nice change for Nick and Ian to put their names on their posts.  I've read the forum for the better part of two years and its seldom if ever you guys put a name on a post.  Its such a pleasant change to be able to address someone by a name, If I might be so bold to suggest that you guys all include your name when you post here. It adds a touch of humanity and civility to what all to often becomes a very impersonal and cold communications medium

Hi Ian, Hi Nick  Glad to talk to you

I feel better already  :

Larry Whitlow
601XL Jabiru 3300
All Dynon Glass panel
Patiently waiting for my AP-76  

 

[DBRV10]

Ian, I do think that the new SV panels will have a market in the USA and some parts of the globe, however where the database is not all that good, like a small third world country (Australia  ;D ) there is not much point in paying double the price or whatever premium the panel will be. Don't get me wrong here, I think it would be a great product, but I can not see the point in it down here. Maybe some ex RAAF guys would love it, but you could not be sure about the database! (Unless that has changed)

So the Dxx series is still a product which I think will be in demand for another 5 years alongside the next-gen SV panels, however less so in the US market.

These are all my thoughts and I have no facts to prove it.

BACKORDERS....... Not sure how you guys think a backorder works, but when I deal with large industrial automation producers of the world, mainly from Japan and Europe, a Backorder means I dont pay till 30 days from Invoice. I do not pay now and wait 6 months.

Sure you dont take one of orders from unknowns like that, but from your Distributors you do because you know the order is genuine. Just a thought here!

How about bring this up at your next sales meeting/board meeting, and after doing some more research and get back to us.

And please remember we are getting a little passionate about this topic, but it is because we care  :-* and if we didn't you would not hear a thing!

Have a good weekend!

DB

PS I see my Question here has started some useful market feedback and up to 6 pages of it in just over a day!
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=39104&page=6

 

[DBRV10]

Going to lob in a call to Nick probably tomorrow morning (today for most of you)......... so how many of you are actually wanting to buy the AP76?

DB

 

[dodsond]

I have a D100 and a D120. I sold my TruTrak atopilot to get the integrated Dynon autopilot. I have NOT bought servos yet, but I do plan on 2 servos and the AP-76.

Doug Dodson
Glasair II-S FT

 

[jeynon2]

I bought the D180, HS34, two servos, heated pitot, and the AP74 for an Arion Lightning I am currently building.  I also bought a Garmin sl30 in anticipation of coupled approaches with the AP76.  

I was aware of Dynon's next gen system when I bought the D180, but was hoping to be flying before its release. I left room in the panel, if not my budget, for the next gen system.  I read on this forum, Dynon's generous offer to take back the AP74 for credit towards the AP76 when it is released, which (FINALLY) tipped the scales for Dynon over the other EFIS and autopilot manufacturers.  (Love the choices, hate the decisions.)  I could build a plane I can fly today, and upgrade efficiently as desire requires and budget permits.  My hope was to upgrade to the AP76 as soon as it is released and later, depending on cost, install the next gen, leaving the D180 in place as a dedicated EMS, autopilot with HSI, and backup EFIS.

I like the versatility that the remote HS34 and AP control modules permit, and will be sorry to see them go.  I can put the screen where it is easy to see and the controls where they are easy to reach.

My philosophy has always been; make the best decisions you can given the information available at the time, and when the world changes around you, do it again from there.

Just another data point for Dynon on how their customers are using their products.

Oh, and I kind of like your company name.

John Eynon