BRG 1 and BRG 2

[Axel]

Can somebody please make some clear statements how BRG1/BRG2 are used in Skyview-only systems (no SL30, no nav radio, no second GPS, nothing) ?

1) With the HSI set to my next WP, can I set BRG1 to some arbitrary off-route (Skyview-)Waypoint and BRG2 to some other ?

2) Can a handheld GPS (e.g. Garmin 695/795) be connected as a 2nd GPS source and if yes, what will happen to the handheld's
- waypoints ?
- map ?
- routes/FP ?

thank you in advance

 

[60av8tor]

I'm sure Dynon will chime in, so hopefully I do not give any bad info, but:

1) No. HSI, BRG1/2 can only be tied to a source - not individual waypoint, etc.  Thus, if only one source, all would be pointing to the same point.

2) Yes. I have 4 sources - SV, 430, 496, and iFly.  Right now the only thing that happens from that data is the above.  No routes, etc will be shown on the SV map.  This is one of the features that I really want - to see my 'official' route from my 430 on the Dynon map.  With some of the recent posts, I think this feature may be forthcoming.

 

[Axel]

thanks for your reply.

1)

if only one source, all would be pointing to the same point.

...which obivously doesn't make sense.

I still can't believe that I have to buy a nav radio just to get bearings to an off route VOR which Skyview has in its database !

2)

  Right now the only thing that happens from that data is the above. 

So when I connect a handheld GPS and select it as source for one of the BRGs, <b>where does the needle point to ?</b>

And where is all this stuff described in the Dynon docs ?

 

[60av8tor]

4-13 - 4-15 in the user guide.  The issue is that you cannot tell a nav source to go to 2 places at once. The pointers are merely pointing to where you are going; a point in space that you have selected (excluding discussion about the course deviation bar which obviously indicates specific lateral guidance to that point). 

In your GPS example, the bearing pointer, if selected to get its info from your handheld, is pointing to whatever waypoint is current in your route of flight, or direct to - such as a crossing radial.  If you're merely checking progress via a crossing radial, you could fairly easily flip-flop between your current nav-to waypoint and the crossing radial waypoint in the SV by using the direct to and then recent menus.

 

[Axel]

thank you for trying to explain Dynon's design errors.

The issue is that you cannot tell a nav source to go to 2 places at once.

We don't speak the same language: I don't want to tell "nav sources" to go places, I want to tell BRG1 to point to some waypoint off my route. Skyview, like each GPS, knows all bearings to all waypoints, so its the simplest of all matters.

As I said: a Dynon design error.

If you're merely checking progress via a crossing radial, you could fairly easily flip-flop between your current nav-to waypoint and the crossing radial waypoint in the SV by using the direct to and then recent menus.

Upsetting my autopilot just to check cross radials? Heaven !

But thank you for your comments, I seem to be the only pilot to have that problem.

 

[60av8tor]

thank you for trying to explain Dynon's design errors.

so its the simplest of all matters.

As I said: a Dynon design error.

Upsetting my autopilot just to check cross radials? Heaven !

I'm definitely not an engineer, but I don't believe it is a Dynon design error. I just don't believe you can point to multiple locations simultaneously with one source - certified or otherwise. Been a while since I've flown a G1000, but I'm pretty sure I could not with that system either. As far as upsetting your autopilot, I would treat it like when getting vectors for an ILS. I would synch the heading bug by pushing and holding the button, then switch roll mode to heading. Just my take...

 

[RVDan]

The GPS inputs to Skyview are just position sources- they tell Skyview where you are now. The Skyview map software (I think) allows you to select waypoints, create a flight plan etc.

You can create a flight plan or do a direct to and select either GPS souce to provide your current position aand and fly the flight plan. If you want a bearing to a point (VOR?) off your flight plan, Skyview would need to be be able to calculate your bearing to and distance to the off course point. I think Skyview does this now when you select nearest. Not sure but would have to get to my display to verify. It won't draw a line on the map to it though unless you selct to go to the point. And since the pointer is pointing to a flight plan (or direct to) waypoint it can't point somewhere else. I don't know of any EFIS that does what you are asking for. It seems like you would have to be able to have 2 flight plans, one for each GPS.

What would you use that for?

 

[Axel]

maybe I botched the attachment...

Mr. 60av8tor,

let me repeat how much I appreciate your comments (especially since Dynon does not "chime in" this discussion - they know why).

But, please: look at the attached screenshot - just the nearest airports: Skyview knows each bearing instantly.

So why can't Dynon let me set, say BRG2, to one of them (without modifying my flight plan or direct-to acrobacies, of course)?

It's a finger's snap for Dynon, but no: they insist on pointing BRG1 and BRG2 to the same (next way)point - absolutely useless!

 

[Axel]

It seems like you would have to be able to have 2 flight plans, one for each GPS. 

What would you use that for?

Seems like my point is not understood, so let my try it once again:

1) You're on a flight plan, currently from VOR A to VOR B.

2) You want to know when you are abeam VOR C (which is not on your FP) and what is the bearing to your aunt's chicken farm (not on your flight plan neither).

3) Since you are a naive Dynon newcomer you try to set BRG1 to VOR C and BRG2 to your aunts chicken farm - both waypoints known to Skyview software, of course.

NOPE!
Dynon says: Hey, we know the bearings, of course, but we will not show them to you, unless you go to VOR C or go to the chicken farm, otherwise we will not point to them with our BRG needles!
And, by the way, even if you go to one of them, both needles would point to the same location!

Talk about design errors !

 

[swatson999]

What you're asking for is not hard *technically*, it's just complicated from an interface point of view. Bearing/distance/time/whatever computations to/from/between any points are simple, and certainly SV can do that, if they needed to implement it.

But you're asking for a change in mode for the BRG pointers, or a change in paradigm, perhaps.

Bearing pointers currently use a selected *source*...Skyview GPS, GPS1 (like a 430W), NAV1 (a VOR/ILS receiver somewhere on your panel), etc.

You're asking them to change it to selecting any known *point* within the Skyview database. Certainly not hard, but it means new interfaces to select the point (probably, unless you want a combination of existing menus somehow), some new display fields so it shows you *what* point the Bearing is pointing to and not just "skyview", etc.

It's not a design "error". It's a requirement which has not been identified (and actually, you may be the only one requesting it...). At the most, it's a feature request. But it's not a design error.

FWIW, are you aware of any other EFIS, certified or experimental, which does this?

 

[dynonsupport]

Axel,
Welcome to the forum! Sorry that it took us 24 hours to get to your post. It's been a busy week. We also apologize that this situation seems to have frustrated you so much.

I think it would help to realize that the HSI on SkyView and the Map are really independent things.

HSI:
This displays a CDI to a selected source. This can be the internal SkyView GPS, or any external GPS or NAV radio you have connected. The CDI works like a standard mechanical CDI, showing a selected course, as well as a lateral deviation from that course.

The HSI can also display two bearing pointers. Again, these are selected by source, internal GPS, external GPS, or external NAV radio. These always point direct to the station. In a GPS this is your next waypoint, and in a NAV this is the ground station you are tuned to.

Note that the HSI doesn't really care *what* it is tuned to. You don't select the airport, waypoint, or VOR with the HSI. It's exactly like a mechanical device. You just flip the switch, tell it to display whatever the NAV or GPS, and it displays exactly what the connected navigation device tells it to.

The HSI doesn't understand a bearing pointer to a sub-device. You can't say GPS1:KPAE. This would require the HSI to somehow program the GPS to a specific waypoint. The HSI doesn't program the GPS, the GPS sends data to the HSI.

If you hook to an external or internal GPS you get the same identical capabilities. You can display the CDI or bearing to the flight plan on that GPS.

Bearing pointers and your course are only the same when you are on-course with a GPS. If you are off-course then they are pointing different.

SkyView Internal GPS:
This is where you program the flight plan, look up waypoints, etc. This has an output to the HSI, but it's exactly like it was an external GPS, where it has only one output, and that output is to your flight plan.

The huge advantage of a GPS is that it is a MAP, not just a needle. You can see the whole world on there, you can see everything around you, and you can look up information. All you have to do is look at the screen to see you are abeam the chicken farm. In the old days, the only way you knew was if the chicken farm had a VOR transmitter, and the needle pointed at it. Now all you have to do is look.

The GPS in SkyView also has a pointer/cursor. You can move the joystick, and select something. It will tell you exactly how far away it is, and on what bearing. Doing this doesn't mess with your primary navigation at all.

As far as we know, this is flat out the way it is done. You can't get a certified Garmin GTN to send out two bearings, one from your flight plan, and one to some other waypoint. A G1000 won't do this. No experimental EFIS will do this. No handheld GPS will do this. The idea of a GPS having multiple outputs to different points on the earth all while labeled GPS1 just isn't done. There might be some FMS units in the world that will do this, but those are whole different beasts than a GA moving map.

In many cases, Dynon does attempt to be industry standard, and a GPS that sends out both a flight plan and a bearing to a point not on the flight plan at all is really non-standard.

So, in a sense, bearing pointers are a bit outdated in a GPS only system. They are a holdover from the days when all your navigation source is give you was a line, and you needed at least two to know where you were. This is of course why we allow them to be turned off.

Future:

This is not a design error. The system is working exactly as designed. That doesn't mean we can't add this as a feature.

As far as I am aware, you are the first person to ask for this. We can't consider a feature until we know someone would find it useful, so please do not act like we have been asked for this and have not done it. In this case, I don't quite understand the way it would be used. I see that you are in Panama, so maybe some navigation there is a bit different than the way I fly, which is mostly GPS flight plans, direct-to, and just watching the map to keep my situational awareness. So it would be very helpful if you could describe more fully how you would use this feature and how it would help you keep track of your position. Is there a reason the nearest, INFO, and pointer menus don't give you what you want?

Now, this would be far from a "finger snap." Somehow we would need a user interface to allow you to select more than one flight plan in SkyView. Then the HSI would need to understand that a GPS source had more than one source. And then some things I am sure I am forgetting. It's never as easy as you think.

If you could point us to a device that you know of that works the way you would like, that is always helpful for us to consider how it should be done.

 

[Axel]

Hello Mr. Dynon, thank you for your explanations.

I think you are prisoner of a strange paradigm: that a BRG needle must be related to the aircraft's route.
Strange, because in classical instrument panels this is not the case: you can set a "needle" to whatever off-route navaids you want.
Even more strange is the concept that the HSI and both BRG are tied together to the same waypoint - unless you install additional hardware, for which there is no logical reason (and no money): Skyview has all the information needed. 

Note that the HSI doesn't really care *what* it is tuned to. You don't select the airport, waypoint, or VOR with the HSI. ... it displays exactly what the connected navigation device tells it to.

So design-wise (or paradigm-wise) things are upside-down:
The GPS shouldn't tell the instruments what to display, it should tell them the position and let the instruments decide what to display based on this position, their settings and the Skyview database.

Somehow we would need a user interface to allow you to select more than one flight plan in SkyView

You have that interface, it's identical to direct-to and permits the same selections. Except that it would not change the FP or current waypoint, only set a BRG needle. Nobody wants more than one (current) flight plan.

I know it's blasphemy, but I even want to have HSI/BRG1/BRG2 indications without any flight plan or direct-to.

In this case, I don't quite understand the way it would be used.

I would be embarrassed to lecture the high-grade pilots in this forum how bearings to off-route navaids can be used. Watching the map and pressing every once in a while the direct-to, scanning through the list, finding the bearing, is not an alternative.

So let me resume this thread:
a) what I want is technically easy, but
b) the Skyview paradigm doesn't allow for it and
c) I try to resolve problems nobody else has

:'( :'(

 

[jc2da]

It sounds like something a virtual VOR would solve, which has been discussed before. You set an arbitrary point to be a virtual VOR. Select the BRG1 or BRG2 source to be "Virtual VOR". Problem solved, no?

 

[dynonsupport]

Not really. A virtual VOR as implemented in most GPS units is still your main navigation. You can virtual VOR to a point, but you can't do it while also leaving your flight plan active. Virtual VOR is part of the map software, not the HSI.

Again, it's a lot easier for us to design a useful feature if we know how it is going to be used, so hearing how knowing that you are on the 123 radial from someplace is helpful when that information is coming from the same GPS that is showing you a whole map and is also giving you navigation commands for your flight plan would really help us understand.

I get how that was useful back when all you had was 2 VOR's. I don't really get the use when you are VFR with a GPS on board.

 

[Axel]

interesting. Please explain in terms of Skyview menu operations!

 

[Axel]

I don't really get the use when you are VFR with a GPS on board.

First, the fact that Dynon is not IFR rated does not mean it should not be used in training IFR procedures in VMC.
IFR procedures have a lot of cross bearings.

Second, let's put it the other way around:
Dynon is not a stupid GPS for bikers. Dynon endeavors to simulate classical avionic instruments, like HSI and RBI, so they should behave like pilots expect them to behave (call it the 'principle of least astonishment').

I pretend that no pilot expects his two RBI needles to point both exclusively to the next waypoint on the flight plan.
(Yes, I know, you can connect a stack of other "nav sources", if you have space, weight and money left).

 

[swatson999]

I think everyone knows what you're asking for...and, btw, we all know how traditional RMIs work, too.

You're asking for Dynon to add the capability to do RMI-like bearings to any airport/VOR/NDB/intersection/etc. in the database...that is, to *become* a sort of "advanced" RMI (where RMIs would normally be connected to a VOR and an ADF or two VOR receivers).

We get it. But, like Dynon, I don't really see the need for this...maybe a nice-to-have feature, but hardly essential (especially for VFR flight).

I actually almost never use the BRG pointers, and I have a SV, a 430W and an SL40. I've played with having the HSI and the two BRG pointers all pointing to different things, but it's never been something I've ever used. Maybe others have, I dunno...

Even when IFR, even when fixes are defined by cross-radials, they're *in the GPS database*, so you don't need cross-radials to determine when you are at a fix (say, on an approach) anymore.

I think the answer is c) you're solving a problem nobody else has.

 

[60av8tor]

I pretend that no pilot expects his two RBI needles to point both exclusively to the next waypoint on the flight plan.

Just like another poster said, everyone understands what your asking for. I also agree that I don't understand the need with moving map GPS - when I can watch myself approach the fix.

As for your quote above, you're right. But NO system has those RMI needles pointing to different points with only one nav source in the cockpit.

 

[Axel]

Ok, my pilot colleagues, I accept that:

You have a map, you have Jeppesen, and you agree with Mr. Dynon that off-route bearings are a thing of the past - even those to my aunts chicken farm.

So let me ask you - and Dynon - a last question:

Why did the Skyview programmers waist the money of Dynon's shareholders to program an odd instrument like an HSI ?

When pilots want to know whether they are on track (or want their position with respect to some radial), why does Dynon not simply ask them to look at the map ?

 

[swatson999]

You do understand that moving map scales can be set by the user, while HSI scales (particularly while on a precision approach) are set by the system, right?

I'm beginning to think one of two things here...

Either you don't understand what an HSI is for (or how RMIs work), or

You're trolling and just trying to pick a fight with the Dynon team to make them look bad.

First of all, your initial request had nothing to do with the HSI portion of the display...now you're arguing about how HSIs work or should be used. You initially requested a new feature for the BRG pointers.

Second of all, the BRG pointers work *precisely* the way RMIs used to work, except that they have the added capability of using a GPS waypoint as the bearing-to fix.

Third, you're getting upset at Dynon for not doing something that only you, apparently, want.

Fourth, you're seem to be complaining about the fact that YOU don't have the additional nav inputs to use for BRG pointers (a VOR receiver, an ADF, an external GPS). Why is that anyone's fault but yours? It's your choice to put what you want into the plane.

Finally, you mentioned something about "IFR certified" for SV earlier. It's not the *display* that's TSOd (not "certified", btw). It's the GPS WAAS receiver that needs to be TSOd to use for IFR flight. Certification has nothing to do with this.

If I may...your request is quite simply this: provide the capability to have either of the BRG pointers point TO any APT/VOR/NDB/Fix in the database. That's it. Nothing to do with HSIs, or certification, or additional equipment, or anything else.

If that's what you want, then make that request to Dynon. I'm sure they'll add it to their list of requests, and if enough people say "yeah, that'd be a nice thing to have", they'll do it.

But if you're the only one of the hundreds or thousands of users who want this feature, a feature which *no other type of RMI has ever provided* as far as we know, then maybe *you* are doing something wrong or just simply asking for something that the rest of the user community doesn't find valuable.