Skyview HDX interface to STEC (Genesys) 55X??

[The Doc]

Looking at upgrading a PA24 Comanche by removing the Steam Gauges and installing DYNON HDX.

Since Dynon does not have a certified AP for this aircraft I'll need to retain the existing STEC 55X.

Is there any way to get the attitude and heading data out of the DYNON ADHRS to input to the STEC Autopilot? And the Left-Right and Up-Down steering for Nav and Altitude functions?

 

[SenecaManica]

Dynon is like the G3X from Garmin. It only plays nice with its own equipment usually.

I know the TruTrak autopilot can accept inputs, but I don't think it's an official STC?

99% sure that the old 55x wouldn't interface at all, seeing as it's an analog Autopilot and nothing analog can interface with the HDX.

I know a pilot who did the HDX upgrade to his Arrow, but had to keep his air gyro and DG to control the century autopilot.

But who knows what the future brings!

Tim

 

[JohnAJohnson]

Dynon is like the G3X from Garmin. It only plays nice with its own equipment usually.

I know the TruTrak autopilot can accept inputs, but I don't think it's an official STC?

99% sure that the old 55x wouldn't interface at all, seeing as it's an analog Autopilot and nothing analog can interface with the HDX.

I know a pilot who did the HDX upgrade to his Arrow, but had to keep his air gyro and DG to control the century autopilot.

But who knows what the future brings!

Tim

I disagree Tim. Dynon isn't anything like Garmin. There is a very long list of equipment that the HDX will interface to, including, as you mentioned, the Trutrak autopilot.

I would much rather have a Dynon autopilot, but my Trutrak does fly off the HDX altitude, VSI, and Heading bugs, and it will follow the Dynon flight plan. The Certificated installation document shows the serial line to the Skyview, so I think it's legal and acceptable to the STC.

 

[SenecaManica]

I disagree Tim. Dynon isn't anything like Garmin. There is a very long list of equipment that the HDX will interface to, including, as you mentioned, the Trutrak autopilot.

I would much rather have a Dynon autopilot, but my Trutrak does fly off the HDX altitude, VSI, and Heading bugs, and it will follow the Dynon flight plan. The Certificated installation document shows the serial line to the Skyview, so I think it's legal and acceptable to the STC.

Well, that depends. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a brand G fanboy. But they G3X is more accepting of 3rd party autopilots. The TXi even more so (though at a much higher TSO price point)

The G3X will interface with GTS traffic and Sirius XM receivers (such as the GDL 52R) Dynon will not...

The G3X will interface with legacy Century, KFC and Stec autopilots, though not drive them (you need to retain the vacuum AI)

The G3X will interface with the StormScope WX500 as well.

Nothing analog can interface with Dynon or the G3X ( such as legacy KX155/165 NAV/COMMs, ADF, DME, GPWS Systems or Weather Radars.

That's what I mean by "it only plays nice with its own equipment".

Dyson themselves have only proven their autopilot works with the certified HDX, I can't speak for TruTrak installs, but I know a few exist.

Avidyne IFD, Garmin GNS/GTN all interface with either companies screens. As do Garmin GNC and others like Trig NAV COMMs, but they're all newer, digital signal equipment. Analog is a no go on either brand......

Cheers. Fly Dynon!

 

[SenecaManica]

I will quickly add, of you wanna refinance your home.

A Txi with a GAD-43e will interface to MANY analog and digital devices. But it comes at an extreme cost. Garmin also charges for 3rd party equipment to connect to theirs.

3rd party Weather Radar? $4,000 extra
Radar Altimeter? $2300 extra
Charts? $1800 per screen
Synthetic Vision? $1900 per screen
Altitude Preselect? $2600 extra

The list goes on with them......

 

[Seansull]

I have a Cherokee 235 with Dual 10" HDX screens and an IDF 440. I too had to retain my STEC 55x when I did my panel upgrade. The STEC will not interface with the HDX in any way. We hid the turn coordinator under the panel to drive the AP and added a G5 for heading bug control.

I dropped the plane off today at the avionics shop to remove the 55x and install a TRIO Pro Pilot. The TRIO will now interface with the HDX, and I will finally be able to simplify my panel and use the HDX like I have always wanted. I made this decision after talking to Dynon at OSH this year and was told the PA28's were still a LONG way away from getting the Dynon AP approval.

Hope that helps!

 

[Rhino]

Dynon is like the G3X from Garmin. It only plays nice with its own equipment usually....

That describes Garmin, not Dynon. Garmin is extremely proprietary, and deliberately excludes equipment it sees as a competitor, unless the market overwhelmingly compels them to do otherwise. The 55X doesn't interface with the HDX because they're both autopilots. Do you know of any other autopilots that interface with different autopilots in order to drive the servos? I haven't heard of any. What any autopilot drives, Garmin, Dynon or anyone else, depends on the servos. Dynon drives servos with an industry standard PWM signal. There's nothing proprietary about it. Whether the STEC servos use PWM or not, I don't know. But approvals for certified aircraft are almost always held up by FAA approval bureaucracy, not by Dynon, and are rarely, if ever, limited by proprietary practices on the part of Dynon. Oh, and depending on the current usage of the current servos, a Trimamp may be required. The HDX doesn't drive high current servos without one.

 

[SenecaManica]

Do you know of any other autopilots that interface with different autopilots in order to drive the servos?

I'm not sure I or you understand the comment? What I'm referring too is the ADHRS signal from a 3rd parties AI to send attitude reference to the legacy autopilots......

The TXi with a GAD 43 will drive old autopilots with full approval to remove vacuum AI and DG instruments.

The G3X will send heading reference to legacy autopilots but not attitude, thus needing to keep the OEM vacuum AI to drive the autopilot. The G5, G3X and GFC 500 were built as experimental package. Then certified through an STC.

Dynon doesn't (in writing) support any autopilot but their own.......which is fine by me. Though some have installed TruTrak with great success. I know the autopilot is integrated into the HDX, as is the G3X for the Garmin autopilot.

Not sure where you went wrong there.... cheers

 

[SenecaManica]

That describes Garmin, not Dynon. Garmin is extremely proprietary, and deliberately excludes equipment it sees as a competitor, unless the market overwhelmingly compels them to do otherwise.

And just quickly, what that is implying is the the lack of legacy support for these (G3X/HDX) modern Experimental turned certified avionics. They usually only play well with their own stuff ....

What I was referring to was the lack of analog support by BOTH companies on these products. I'm not singling anyone out here.

They both support modern GPS (IFD, GNS or GTN) modern NAV/COMM (GNC, Trig) but nothing Analog. KX series NAV/COMMs, ADF, DME ect......

No I'll intent meant here. Just facts directly from Garmin and Dynon.

 

[Rhino]

I'm not sure I or you understand the comment? What I'm referring too is the ADHRS signal from a 3rd parties AI to send attitude reference to the legacy autopilots......

What you were saying is that you couldn't understand why an autopilot (HDX) wouldn't drive another autopilot (55X). That's what didn't make sense. But thanks for the clarification.

And just quickly, what that is implying is the the lack of legacy support for these (G3X/HDX) modern Experimental turned certified avionics. They usually only play well with their own stuff ....

Dynon has a primarily open architecture. Garmin's is primarily proprietary, so it's not both companies. That has been discussed here many times before. The data you need may well already be available on the Dynon serial bus. I don't know for sure. But others with software experience have created all manner of capability by extracting such data. But even if it is, Garmin will not allow integration. Believe me, there would be plenty of people who'd be happy if they did. I've seen plenty of pilots abandon Garmin entirely because they refuse to play well with others. Not so with Dynon. I don't deny or downplay the existence of a problem. I just think the blame belongs where it really applies, with Garmin.

 

[SenecaManica]

What you were saying is that you couldn't understand why an autopilot (HDX) wouldn't drive another autopilot (55X). That's what didn't make sense. But thanks for the clarification.

HDX I'm referring to is the screen, not the autopilot.....The software is in there, but if I was talking about the Dynon Autopilot, I would have typed it out....

Dynon HDX is the screen to me.....
Dynon Autopilot is the.........autopilot
Screen + Servos = Autopilot

Dynon has a primarily open architecture. Garmin's is primarily proprietary, so it's not both companies. That has been discussed here many times before. The data you need may well already be available on the Dynon serial bus. I don't know for sure. But others with software experience have created all manner of capability by extracting such data. But even if it is, Garmin will not allow integration. Believe me, there would be plenty of people who'd be happy if they did. I've seen plenty of pilots abandon Garmin entirely because they refuse to play well with others. Not so with Dynon. I don't deny or downplay the existence of a problem. I just think the blame belongs where it really applies, with Garmin.

Again, both the X models don't, as of yet, work with legacy at all, except the G3X works with some Legacy autopilots.

I also call BS on Garmin not integrating well. So many pilots love to spout that out. They're one of the only brands that, as of now, using the GAD43e and a Txi screen, will integrate with DOZENS of legacy Bendix King, Collins, Avidyne and other 3rd party equipment...... Aspen offers that as well through their APA.

But that's TSO equipment, not Ex turned Certified.....

Again, not a brand G fanboy, but I'm not going to lie about their integration either. They make great avionics, but I don't like their "rule the world" business practices....

 

[Rhino]

The HDX is an autopilot. It's built in. So you are referring to an autopilot when referring to an HDX

I'm not lying about Garmin. Please don't get insulting. This place isn't like the rest of the internet, and we'd like to keep it that way. I'm relying on experience and the reports of numerous other builders and pilots. I don't simply scoff at those reports, and I don't scoff at yours. Garmin uses proprietary protocols. No one else can use them without blessing from Garmin, and doing so can make that equipment incompatible with others that don't use a Garmin or Garmin compatible protocol. It's a complicated decision. Yes, Garmin is compatible with other equipment, but only when they allow it. And they don't like to allow it for equipment that competes with their own, unless the market share of that other equipment significantly reduces the number of their own installs due to incompatibility.

We should also address the other side of the coin. With the certified market working well for Dynon so far, it's likely the next generation of Skyview will be more optimized the for wider compatibility, possibly including easier to access ADAHRS data. Don't forget that all generations so far were geared toward the Experimental marketplace, and some things you can't easily go back and re-engineer into existing equipment. The autopilot is a perfect example of that. Having one built in already, there was no need to output that data externally. Trying to retrofit it is likely not simple or easy, even if the system had room for it. They're already running up against memory and storage space limitation issues with the HDX now. And the limitations the certified world were probably just a distant dream when the existing systems were designed.

Dynon has addressed all this here several times before. They don't get to decide who can use proprietary Garmin protocols. Only Garmin can do that. And adding something else to an existing system can be a lot more complicated than you think. Compatibility improvements have been slow, but they have been fairly continuous. In the certified world, the FAA is an enormous stumbling block, even where compatibility is already possible. This isn't just a simple decision someone has chosen not to make, Dynon or Garmin. Whether you or I, or anyone else agrees with them, there are reasons for those decisions. It isn't just a blatant disregard for the wants or needs of their customers, and it's unfair to portray them that way.

 

[SenecaManica]

The HDX is an autopilot. It's built in. So you are referring to an autopilot when referring to an HDX

We can agree to disagree. It's only an autopilot when you add servos and the control head to me. With or without the certified autopilot available, it's still sold as the SkyView HDX. I understand where you're coming from, just sounds wrong to me.

To each their own! And yes, the biggest roadblock in general aviation is the FAA approval process, we can agree on that. Seeing as the FAA wants money in their pockets too..............................
(Hello GAMI 100UL)

I'd rather have my HDX with an IFD navigator over a GTN though anyways. One of few Garmin avionics that work with the Dynon.

But I stand by my comment on Garmin integration too though. My hanger neighbour is running a G500Txi with a KFC 200, an Avidyne IFD and GNS 430 along with a King DME and ADF (displayed on the TXi) with no issues. The cost is what stops me though. The 10" TXI with EIS and the GAD43e with Autopilot interface was north of $45,000 plus install! And it's a mess of old, newish and new.

Where as with the HDX Kit (Seneca in my case) is all in one WITH AUTOPILOT (be it only 2-axis) at nearly the same cost....

I'll be cheering for Dynon from now on, but I won't talk down Garmin equipment any day. But I will complain about their cost and the fact they charge for many 3rd party equipment "software"....

Cheers!

 

[Rhino]

I think you'll see the next generation of Dynon products move significantly toward wider integration with other products in the certified world. Their current range was designed for Experimentals, with certified compatibility being somewhat of an afterthought. In the meantime, we do whatever we can, which generally has always been the case.