What does a 430W give me?

[jc2da]

Having flown my new RV-10 for 85 hours VFR now, I realize I want to get my IFR rating. However, i have a lot of thinking to do to get there from where I am now, especially in regards to my panel and equipment.

My panel was built as a basic VFR panel to keep things simple during the build. I have a single SV1000, single ADAHRS, single Dynon GPS, single SL-30, and dual axis Dynon AP.

It seems like the Garmin 430W or the new GTN's are standard equipment for IFR panels. I realize you get the certified GPS so you are technically legal to fly IFR. However, it seems like a lot of other functions in the 430W for instance are redundant: flight planning, terrain, moving map, AF/D, comms, etc.

I can completely understand investing $10k in a garmin unit when upgrading from a 6-pack. You get a lot of bang for the buck in the upgrade. However, it seems like someone with a Skyview, a lot of those features are just redundant or will just be secondary to the Skyview. Is that correct to view them as a secondary or backup to the Skyview then?

Just trying to understand how the equipment all mixes together with each other.

Thanks for any info!
Jae

 

[paxhia]

My advice (free) is to go get your instrument rating and fly behind the equipment you think you want. Then you will have a much better idea on what will work for you in your airplane.

 

[dynonsupport]

You might give our sales team a call and ask for Kirk. He'd give you the full story.

But the short story is that if you're actually in the IFR system - ie - you've filed, and you're claiming "/G" ("I have a GPS"), the GPS you're using and using as your primary navigation source should be the certified one (GTN, 430, etc).

If you you're doing anything else (VFR), you'll find the SkyView's mapping software's UI will let you get where you want to go with less hassle.

 

[jc2da]

Ok, i may have to call sales then.

Other than how to connect the 430 or GTNs using ARINC, the Skyview documentation does not mention anything about flying with a Skyview connected with a Garmin unit. I would think there would be a lot of questions about this. Can flight plans crosstalk? Do any warnings crosstalk or do i have to scan both screens? Do i have to file flight plans twice, once in the garmin and once in Skyview? Can the Dynon autopilot fly the Garmin's flight plan? etc. etc. etc.

 

[dedgemon]

You might give our sales team a call and ask for Kirk. He'd give you the full story.

But the short story is that if you're actually in the IFR system - ie - you've filed, and you're claiming "/G" ("I have a GPS"), the GPS you're using and using as your primary navigation source should be the certified one (GTN, 430, etc).

If you you're doing anything else (VFR), you'll find the SkyView's mapping software's UI will let you get where you want to go with less hassle.

Let me take a stab at it another way. Since the Skyview already does almost everything you need, what would it take to make the Skyviews GPS source "certified". Is it just a mountain of paper and money, with a little software thrown in for good measure? (And more data for the database I suppose).

Seems like a "relatively" low cost GPS source to feed the skyview is what we really want instead of a 430W.

 

[swatson999]

It means showing compliance with the appropriate TSO, in this case I believe it's C146a for the GNS430W (for the GPS part *only*, not the VOR, etc.).

http://selair.selkirk.ca/Training/instrument-rating/documents/TSO%20C146a.pdf

ETA: Note that the TSO calls out things like DO-178, etc., which the entire development process must comply with, in addition to a whole host of other requirements (environmental, performance, etc.) as specified in other documents.

So it's not just a mountain of paperwork...it's the entire product development system that has to be done in a particular way...

 

[dedgemon]

Sounds like paperwork to me.

Lets say we develop a new GPS receiver, and do the paperwork, etc. from the beginning. Bet its cheaper than a $10000 430w.

I asked because I'm interested in the scope of the problem.

I have a hard believing that Garmin can have the only solution. The Skyview is already doing 90% of the work. We just a certified box to provide the gps data stream.

 

[dynonsupport]

Ok, i may have to call sales then.

Other than how to connect the 430 or GTNs using ARINC, the Skyview documentation does not mention anything about flying with a Skyview connected with a Garmin unit. I would think there would be a lot of questions about this. Can flight plans crosstalk? Do any warnings crosstalk or do i have to scan both screens? Do i have to file flight plans twice, once in the garmin and once in Skyview? Can the Dynon autopilot fly the Garmin's flight plan? etc. etc. etc.

Basically, SkyView AP will fly the flight plan in the 430/W - SkyView AP follows the HSI needle. While the 430/W is a nice GPS for SkyView because it does provide GPS steering commands (turn anticipation) - many other GPS' do not, but the 430/W is just another source of GPS data to SkyView.

Currently, flight plans do not "crosstalk" (although "pull the flightplan into SkyView from the 430/W" is a feature that MAY* be implemented in a future version of firmware).

Warnings do not "crosstalk".

SkyView's flight planning is growing steadily more capable with each new firmware release.

* As always, mention of a potential feature does not mean it definitely will happen, or can we offer a timeline.

 

[jc2da]

Thanks for the update. After watching some youtube training videos for the Garmin units, I have a better idea of what the Garmins provide. At least for IFR flying, it certainly seems like the Garmin display would be the primary display used for flight planning at least. If the Dynon autopilot can fly the Garmin flight plan, then that certainly seems like a big bonus.

The Garmin units provide a lot of features, esp for IFR flying, above and beyond just the certified GPS feed. They also pack in a lot of other "nice to have" features which I never knew i needed nor wanted such as a remote audio panel, remote transponder, and even a touchscreen (in the new GTN series).

In a nutshell, it seems like the various companies are competing for panel real estate. Features from different companies seem be overlapping each other more and more. I avoided this initial confusion by trying to stick with a single vendor such as Dynon. This plan was okay for a VFR panel.

For an IFR panel, i now have no choice but to integrate with Garmin units which duplicates features with Skyview. It will basically be like doubling the cost of my panel by duplicating the display and many features.

 

[lindsayj]

For what it's worth, here are some basic thoughts about the Garmin 430W that might help. First, it has a data base provided by Jeppesen of all Instrument Approaches in CONUS which are easily and intuitively programmed by the pilot as flight plans into the system and include vertical glideslope guidance for ILS and applicable GPS approaches, as well as the same sort of mapping and terrain data in the Skyview GPS. The data base is part of the STC, I think, and is part of what makes the Garmin IFR legal. The Skyview systems provide the indicator (HSI) to display the vertical and horizontal steering info to the pilot and path for horizontal to the autopilot (vertical in the future). Additionally, the Garmins have FDE (Fault Detection and Exclusion) and RAIM (Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring) both of which help seal the IFR legality character and are too complex for this input. I don't expect to see any of the above characteristics appear in the Skyview system ever. Getting this sort of stuff to work flawlessly and failure free forever (it seems) is one of the reasons the Garmin stuff is expensive. You can download the 430W simulator and (I think) the manual from the Garmin website if you want to see what it does. I think it's worth every penny just like Skyview. Jack L

 

[jc2da]

Thanks. Watching the youtube videos of flying approaches with the Garmin simulators and the real Garmin units in the air were really helpful.

I hope someone posts up some videos flying their Skyview/430W panel in some approaches. I have seen videos with AFS, GRT, and of course G1000 G900's G3X's, GXYZ1234 etc. but not with Skyview yet. Anyone know of any?

I am afraid to try the simulator out myself because it might cost me several thousand bucks when I give-in and order one. It is definitely a matter of when not if. I now want to comparison shop with the GTN's. I will have to start saving my newspaper delivery money for down the road....

 

[swatson999]

Sounds like paperwork to me.

Lets say we develop a new GPS receiver, and do the paperwork, etc. from the beginning. Bet its cheaper than a $10000 430w.

It may sound that way to the uninitiated, but there is considerably more at play than just "paperwork".

Did you read the TSO?  And all of the applicable documents it calls out?

 

[dynonsupport]

Exactly. While there definitely are mountains of paperwork that you need to build before you end up with a certified GPS navigation product, there are some really deep engineering requirements that have to be dealt with in a completely different way than a company like ours typically does. Another thing people don't realize is that certification changes the way you do everything, from production to quality assurance, as well. So though there's lots of paperwork - to be sure - that's just the output of all of the other meaningful things you need to also be doing to get there.