Mooney Autopilot

[greentips]

The S-Tec has been around a long time. They were once a reasonable option 20+ years ago. They were bought by Genesys and were the only unit on the market. I don't recall the specifics, but the price increased markedly. I was in the market for a replacement for the Cessna 300 in mine and as soon as I heard the uninstalled price, soldiered on with the Cessna until Dynon's autopilot came out. Despite the foot dragging by the feds, Dynon has done a tremendous service to the GA community with its autopilot offering. Tru-Track has also helped, and I understand they've been bought by King.

I agree with @M20Driver, the system is broken. The work that Dynon and others are doing, and their persistence will help fix it, but it will take time. I was at a lecture at OSH years ago when the Skyview HDX was first approaching STC using the approval mechanism Dynon is using. The speaker, in describing his role said, "Garmin took me off their Christmas Card list."

As for me, I'm very glad Dynon is continuing to press forward with the certification nightmare we all face, and I am very happy with their product.

 

[Bill Putney]

One of the interesting things I’ve recently discovered is that Garmin has “Organization Designation Authorization.“ It’s a pretty interesting program. It bestows far broader authority to act on behalf of the FAA than other designees like DERs and DARs have. I’m sure they are supervised in some manor, but if there’s a bottle neck somewhere in the process of getting a product PMA’d or an STC finished, they just hire another employee to pick up the load. They don’t have to wait in the FAA’s cue at all.

It’s not a light weight task to take on, but if you’ve been a virtual monopoly in the certified GA avionics business for a few decades and have a huge staff and significant financial reserves, it can be done. The authority is granted by type. Garmin has STC, PMA and TSO ODA’s. It may explain why Garmin gets things done faster. It is interesting that Honeywell also has ODA and owns Bendix/King but that doesn’t seemed to have helped them that much. It could be that their focus is on big iron and B/K doesn’t get a big share of that resource. B/K has been engineering resource starved for a long time before recently making a reemergence in the market.

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/delegated_organizations#:~:text=The%20Organization%20Designation%20Authorization%20(%20ODA,authority%20to%20organizations%20or%20companies.

 

[Bill Putney]

Looking back through the thread, I see that the topic of ODA has been raised previously. Pardon the duplication.

 

[Bill Putney]

Its only one company that is full steam ahead. It’s not just Dynon, the other avionics companies deal with it also, they cant get anything done in a reasonable time frame. Go look at the STC’s each company holds and the time frame. I’ve been working for a year to get a field approval for my airplane for an STC’d standby alternator that not approved for my airframe. It’s stupid simple, but the FAA keep grasping at requirements that exceed the original STC, and some requirements don’t even apply to the modification. They don't want to do anything.

Garmin is an ODA ( Organization Designation authorization) For my own knowledge I started digging into what does it take to become an ODA. In the ODA application, homepage, it specifically says “Discuss any plans to apply for ODA with your FAA managing office prior to submitting an application as not all qualified organizations will be granted ODA. ODA’s are granted based on the needs of the appointing office and benefit to the FAA” Competition for Garmin is not beneficial to the faa, nor the shareholders..

I feel our system is not only broken, but that old saying applies, follow the money. I’ve read on other forums of varying interests, and Monopoly and Garmin are mentioned. The only thing holding other companies back, is the government. I try not to get political. But several large investment firms own a lot of Garmin, and I wonder who’s invested in those firms that’s involved in Washington. I hate politics and the divide they create. I just see whats going on for what it is.

It occurs to me that granting an ODA “…to benefit the FAA” may be read as “…we can reduce staff and save some money.” Granting an ODA to Garmin, S-Tec and Honeywell might mean there is less FAA staff to process things for others. ODA sounds like a great idea, except when it becomes a way of sanctioning a monopoly. That might not have been the intent of the regulation, but it seems to be the result.

 

[datadriver]

One company has 239 individual airframes approved and counting at a really good rate, something seems fishy to me.

THIS

 

[cbr600]

Apparently the BENDIXKING AEROCRUZE 100 is now available for short body Mooneys. Has anyone used it? Thoughts on what it does not provide when compared with Dynon's? I've been waiting too long for the certification and I need to update my M20E's panel. The eHSI, remote gyro, and Brittain AP are slowly decaying and overhauls are getting a bit old. I already have an Avydine 440 and that rules out most Garmin gear (not to mention the cost).

 

[M20Driver]

Apparently the BENDIXKING AEROCRUZE 100 is now available for short body Mooneys. Has anyone used it? Thoughts on what it does not provide when compared with Dynon's? I've been waiting too long for the certification and I need to update my M20E's panel. The eHSI, remote gyro, and Brittain AP are slowly decaying and overhauls are getting a bit old. I already have an Avydine 440 and that rules out most Garmin gear (not to mention the cost).

It is, Im installing one now in a neighbors Mooney. I know of a few others already flying on social media outlets, and love it. It does what the dynon does minus VOR/ILS, whch to me isnt that big of a deal. I insalled one in a 172 last year and he couldn't be happier with its perfromance

 

[Aviator305]

Apparently the BENDIXKING AEROCRUZE 100 is now available for short body Mooneys. Has anyone used it? Thoughts on what it does not provide when compared with Dynon's?

I have one of these on a Piper Dakota integrated with a Skyvue HDX and Garmin GPS 175. It flies like it’s on rails. I do not miss the lack of VOR or ILS capability, as I have always been given clearances via fixes and all airports I fly to have an RNAV approach. The autopilot is so accurate, it will have your mains straddle the centerline if you let it (not proud of how I know this).

 

[cbr600]

Good to know about the VOR/ILS. Admittedly I have not flown one of those in ages. I'll be calling a couple of shops next year. Thanks!

 

[JohnAJohnson]

The Aerocruze doesn't do IAS hold climbs. It climbs at an assigned rate. Also, no auto pitch trim. Not sure if the Dynon Autopilot will include that feature on the Mooneys, but on my Cardinal with Aerocruze, it is missed.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

I have to say, you Mooney owners... The rest of us would give a left *** to be on the development list, or even if we heard a rumor that we might be getting on the development list. Be happy you are, and just wait for the Dynon autopilot. To me, no other autopilot comes close to features and full integration with the HDX and its bugs.

 

[bird_of_joy]

It looks like after the Beechcrafts' AP approvals this week the Mooneys' are the next one expected to go through. Has the AP progress bar moved to ~75% now or was it already like that? I'm hopeful this gets approved this year .

I'm looking for a panel rebuild with Dynon later this year and having the AP ready for that would make my life so much easier so I don't need to keep my legacy AP and eventually go back just for that.

 

[cbr600]

I’m not optimistic on that one. They seem to move the priorities and our Mooneys are at the bottom. But I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[Rhino]

They haven't moved any priorities. The M20 is the only autopilot approval pending. The FAA sets the pace here, not Dynon.

 

[M20Driver]

I noticed a M20J and a Piper Arrow in the panel pics page, both with autopilots.. In Australia, And I thought they were the strict ones

 

[M20Driver]

They haven't moved any priorities. The M20 is the only autopilot approval pending. The FAA sets the pace here, not Dynon.

Bingo. An we all know what pace the gubment works at

 

[JohnAJohnson]

The FAA sets the pace here, not Dynon.

So the FAA tells Dynon they can only have two projects in the works at any one time? And the FAA tells Dynon where they can operate? It may take a full year or more to get the FAA to approve a project, but Dynon decides if they want one active project or five. And if there are no more qualified project managers in the PNW to be hired, rent a hangar in Wichita, hire there, and use the same FAA office as the G guys. The demand exists and there would be a ROI sure as the sun rises. It makes no sense why Dynon would leave money on the table, happily scooped up by their competitors. No matter how you slice it, there is more to the story than "FAA".

 

[M20Driver]

So the FAA tells Dynon they can only have two projects in the works at any one time? And the FAA tells Dynon where they can operate? It may take a full year or more to get the FAA to approve a project, but Dynon decides if they want one active project or five. And if there are no more qualified project managers in the PNW to be hired, rent a hangar in Wichita, hire there, and use the same FAA office as the G guys. The demand exists and there would be a ROI sure as the sun rises. It makes no sense why Dynon would leave money on the table, happily scooped up by their competitors. No matter how you slice it, there is more to the story than "FAA".

Dealt with the FAA much? I've given up trying to deal with them on simple field approvals that a few years back would have been easy. The other 2 autopilot players have the same story regarding the FAA. I've been waiting on the approval for a cessna 150 approval from Trio, its pushing 2 years now. When done they can move on to the next airframe (The mooney is next) You can have as many projects as you want, the FAA will only take 1 project approval at a time. The G guys dont have that barrier. They get to approve stuff in house, thats an approval that wont be granted to others. That must be nice. Yes the demand is there, the support isn't.

 

[Rhino]

So the FAA tells Dynon they can only have two projects in the works at any one time? And the FAA tells Dynon where they can operate? It may take a full year or more to get the FAA to approve a project, but Dynon decides if they want one active project or five. And if there are no more qualified project managers in the PNW to be hired, rent a hangar in Wichita, hire there, and use the same FAA office as the G guys. The demand exists and there would be a ROI sure as the sun rises. It makes no sense why Dynon would leave money on the table, happily scooped up by their competitors. No matter how you slice it, there is more to the story than "FAA".

Dynon did have multiple approval projects going. The M20 autopilot is just the last remaining on the current list. And if you think a project manager is all that's required, you've obviously never dealt with the FAA for approvals. Dynon has made some mistakes, to be sure. Who hasn't? But the overwhelming majority of the cause for delays rests squarely in the lap of the FAA.