Canadian Certified Installer ?
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RV8JD
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Not sure, but I don't think Dynon equipment is certified outside the US yet. Here is a link to their installer webpage, but it only shows US installers.
www.dynoncertified.com
Here is their dealer page:
Dynon Certified | How to Purchase and Install
How to Purchase and get Dynon's popular SkyView HDX system installed in your certified aircraft.
www.dynoncertified.com
Here is their dealer page:
Dynon Avionics | Dynon Dealers
Looking for a Dynon Avionics dealer near you? We have provided a list of Dynon Dealers in the US and around the world.
dynonavionics.com
Canada adopts the FAA as far as I know...... so time to step-up with Canadian certified installers.Not sure, but I don't think Dynon equipment is certified outside the US yet. Here is a link to their installer webpage, but it only shows US installers.
Dynon Certified | How to Purchase and Install
How to Purchase and get Dynon's popular SkyView HDX system installed in your certified aircraft.
Here is their dealer page:
Dynon Avionics | Dynon Dealers
Looking for a Dynon Avionics dealer near you? We have provided a list of Dynon Dealers in the US and around the world.dynonavionics.com
RV8JD
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Yes, there is a bilateral agreement between the FAA and TCCA. But for things like STC's, it is not automatic. There still has to be a application by Dynon to TCCA for approval based on the FAA STC. Then TCCA can adopt the FAA STC conditions as is, or apply additional conditions if they think it is necessary, and then in either case, issue its own STC. Many times the TCCA STC is a rubber stamp of the FAA STC, but not always. Check out this document, and see Table 1 and Note 3:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/aircraft-airworthiness/international-agreements-arrangements/implementation-procedures-united-states.html
https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/aircraft-airworthiness/international-agreements-arrangements/implementation-procedures-united-states.html
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Basically, what RV8JD said. We're looking into non-US installations, but don't have anything to announce at this time. If you have an N-reg aircraft outside the US, though, you can have SkyView installed under the FAA STC, provided that an FAA-approved IA or shop performs the install (this is more common than you'd think, especially in EU)
AEROWELDER
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- May 12, 2020
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Where in Canada are you located? We're in Sandpoint Idaho a could assist you if your close.
I am based in Canada with a Rockwell Commander 112 and unfortunately find that there are no Certified Dynon installers authorized in Canada. Experimental No Problem. Certified No Bueno. My local shop has tried to deal direct with Dynon and can't get approved. I understand something to do with Transport Canada. So frustrating as I believe the Dynon Skyview HDX to be a game changer in the market place. Hopefully the required approvals come soon!
Sidenote: I can't understand how being US based gets you free database updates and those outside the US have to pay. I wonder if Apple worked on a similar principle their iPhones would be so successful? Dynon... You can/ and should offer database updates to non US installs too. It's the right thing to do.
Anyways, until we can buy and install in Canada I will be watching from the sidelines patiently waiting.
Question Dynon: Who directly should we bug at Transport Canada to move this ball down the field???
Rockwell Commander 112A and Cessna 206H ready for new glass... Tick Tock.
Sidenote: I can't understand how being US based gets you free database updates and those outside the US have to pay. I wonder if Apple worked on a similar principle their iPhones would be so successful? Dynon... You can/ and should offer database updates to non US installs too. It's the right thing to do.
Anyways, until we can buy and install in Canada I will be watching from the sidelines patiently waiting.
Question Dynon: Who directly should we bug at Transport Canada to move this ball down the field???
Rockwell Commander 112A and Cessna 206H ready for new glass... Tick Tock.
Colin Pazdzior
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- Oct 14, 2020
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As others have said.... Dynon has taken the view that full TC approval of their STC is required for them to legally sell for installation in a certified C reg airplane - ie, you can't get a US shop to install in your C reg plane either.
It is true that FAA STCs for FAA types (at least for smaller airplanes) are automatically accepted in Canada, but that isn't really explicit in the current US/CA bilateral agreement on this (apparently it's coming in the next version), and is laid out in a work instruction for TC - so Dynon is following the letter of the law of the existing bilateral agreement. As such, they submitted the entire STC to TC, including the FAA types - and it's been held up for quite a while, last I heard. As part of this, Dynon has taken the view that they cannot legally issue the required 8130 without showing compliance with TC regs, per the bilateral agreement...there is a guidance letter from the FAA that loosens requirements for declaring conformity with regs of regulator of registration of aircraft which everyone else follows, but Dynon is sticking with the superseded text in the bilateral agreement which DOES require a regulatory conformity statement.
Of note, Garmin doesn't do this...if you look closely at their TC submissions for non TSO-d products (G5, etc), they list ONLY non-FAA types, as they take the (correct) view that TC accepts FAA STCs for FAA airplanes. And they happily issue 8130s for G5s for sale in Canada with no issue.
My understanding of the TC STC acceptance holdup, circa Jan 2021, is that Dynon certified the HDX under the newest revision of the FARs, which includes some language that wasn't in the last version. The CARs are normally harmonized pretty closely with the equivalent FARs for cert stuff, but they're still on the last version. So....submitting to TC, they are showing compliance with rules that don't yet exist in TC land, which has necessitated all sorts of what seems to be very time consuming back and forth.
Also, on that question to Dynon - I really pushed as hard as I could earlier this year as we wanted to buy 2x full SkyView HDX setups for Seneca IIs, with a view to more for other aircraft next year. Engaged TC folks, had calls with Dynon certification types and sales VP.....I don't think you'll get anywhere until TC accepts the Dynon STC as submitted by Dynon - Dynon has decided that the original text of the US/CA bilateral agreement on certification is governing here and that's that.
At this point, I'm starting to think we may need to go with Garmin if we actually want to buy something for a C-reg airplane in the foreseeable future.
It is true that FAA STCs for FAA types (at least for smaller airplanes) are automatically accepted in Canada, but that isn't really explicit in the current US/CA bilateral agreement on this (apparently it's coming in the next version), and is laid out in a work instruction for TC - so Dynon is following the letter of the law of the existing bilateral agreement. As such, they submitted the entire STC to TC, including the FAA types - and it's been held up for quite a while, last I heard. As part of this, Dynon has taken the view that they cannot legally issue the required 8130 without showing compliance with TC regs, per the bilateral agreement...there is a guidance letter from the FAA that loosens requirements for declaring conformity with regs of regulator of registration of aircraft which everyone else follows, but Dynon is sticking with the superseded text in the bilateral agreement which DOES require a regulatory conformity statement.
Of note, Garmin doesn't do this...if you look closely at their TC submissions for non TSO-d products (G5, etc), they list ONLY non-FAA types, as they take the (correct) view that TC accepts FAA STCs for FAA airplanes. And they happily issue 8130s for G5s for sale in Canada with no issue.
My understanding of the TC STC acceptance holdup, circa Jan 2021, is that Dynon certified the HDX under the newest revision of the FARs, which includes some language that wasn't in the last version. The CARs are normally harmonized pretty closely with the equivalent FARs for cert stuff, but they're still on the last version. So....submitting to TC, they are showing compliance with rules that don't yet exist in TC land, which has necessitated all sorts of what seems to be very time consuming back and forth.
Also, on that question to Dynon - I really pushed as hard as I could earlier this year as we wanted to buy 2x full SkyView HDX setups for Seneca IIs, with a view to more for other aircraft next year. Engaged TC folks, had calls with Dynon certification types and sales VP.....I don't think you'll get anywhere until TC accepts the Dynon STC as submitted by Dynon - Dynon has decided that the original text of the US/CA bilateral agreement on certification is governing here and that's that.
At this point, I'm starting to think we may need to go with Garmin if we actually want to buy something for a C-reg airplane in the foreseeable future.
Hi Colin,
Thanks for the in-depth feedback. It's super frustrating! Having said that last week on the Commander Forums a guy directed me to this recent bilateral agreement that he feels qualifies Dynon and allows the installation. The process being buy direct from Dynon, name the installer, they then label the STC with that installer name and ship the gear to either you or them. The problem I'm having is that the installer I want to use is having difficulty dealing with Dynon for approvals. Odd because it is one of the largest and most reputable avionics shops in Canada.
I'll keep you posted on any progress I make. Blue skies.
https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/air...-united-states
Thanks for the in-depth feedback. It's super frustrating! Having said that last week on the Commander Forums a guy directed me to this recent bilateral agreement that he feels qualifies Dynon and allows the installation. The process being buy direct from Dynon, name the installer, they then label the STC with that installer name and ship the gear to either you or them. The problem I'm having is that the installer I want to use is having difficulty dealing with Dynon for approvals. Odd because it is one of the largest and most reputable avionics shops in Canada.
I'll keep you posted on any progress I make. Blue skies.
https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/air...-united-states
Colin Pazdzior
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Good luck - I hope you make progress, and would love to hear details.
That said.... I spent a long time pushing this and the answer from Dynon didn't change, just became more firm. They have interpreted the text of the original bilateral as being gospel, and no FAA or TC guidance letters issued since then, or industry practice to the contrary seems to be accepted. Maybe that's changed in the last 6 months... But that was straight from the certification person in charge of international agreements.
As for labeling the STC with installer name- my understanding is that Dynon wants to issue each piece of equipment with an 8130 calling out the specific aircraft registration the installation is for. And under the original terms of the bilateral, a declaration of conformity is required. (though that requirement removed by the FAA in a subsequent letter, it's still in the text of the agreement). As such, they flat out refused, and gave a hard NO for C-reg airplanes, regardless of who installs it. As I mentioned, Garmin and others have gone with the guidance in the letter, and their 8130s reflect this.
If you're interested, here's the FAA letter:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On June 24, 2016, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued a policy deviation memorandum for FAA Order 8130.21H, Procedures for Completion and Use of the Authorized Release Certificate, FAA Form 8130-3, Airworthiness Approval Tag, Change I. The memorandum provides a deviation to allow an authorized individual to issue the FAA Form 8130-3, Authorized Release Certificate (tag) for the purpose of exporting an engine, propeller, or article without the use of the statement, "Export airworthiness approval - This engine/propeller/article meets the special requirements of(enter country)," in block 12.
Requiring this statement needlessly complicates issuance of the tag and hinders the global shipment of engines, propellers, and articles, especially when they are exported multiple times. However, an exporter must continue to include any other statements required by FAA Order 8130.2 I and the applicable bilateral agreements. For example, "This PMA part is not a critical component."
Authorized individuals have been directed to issue a tag for export as follows: for Articles
• Do not use the statement, "Export airworthiness approval -This article meets the special requirements of(enter country),"' from paragraph 4-5 L(9), in block 12.
• Do not use the statements in Appendix A, Figures A-14, A-15, A-16, and A-17 ("Export airworthiness approval - This article meets the special requirements of (enter country)" and "EXPORT."
• Do not use the statement, "Export airworthiness approval. No special import requirements for [enter name of country or jurisdiction] stated at time of issuance," from paragraph 4-5 L(l 0), in block 12.
• An exporter must continue to include any other statements required by FAA Order 8130.21 and the applicable bilateral agreements.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, on STC applications, Garmin and Aspen generally just exclude FAA types from their STC applications for Canada:
-G500 (not TXi) only has non FAA types listed, and many are legally installed on FAA types in Canada
-Aspen Evolution (TSO) TC STC only has non-FAA types on it – interestingly, their website spells out automatic acceptance by TC of FAA
The TC Staff Instruction on accepting foreign STCs is 513-003, and a copy is posted here: http://www.airwrweb.com/uploads/2/6/4/3/26438937/staff_instruction_513-003.pdf
Appendix B, information note b is the relevant bit.
That said.... I spent a long time pushing this and the answer from Dynon didn't change, just became more firm. They have interpreted the text of the original bilateral as being gospel, and no FAA or TC guidance letters issued since then, or industry practice to the contrary seems to be accepted. Maybe that's changed in the last 6 months... But that was straight from the certification person in charge of international agreements.
As for labeling the STC with installer name- my understanding is that Dynon wants to issue each piece of equipment with an 8130 calling out the specific aircraft registration the installation is for. And under the original terms of the bilateral, a declaration of conformity is required. (though that requirement removed by the FAA in a subsequent letter, it's still in the text of the agreement). As such, they flat out refused, and gave a hard NO for C-reg airplanes, regardless of who installs it. As I mentioned, Garmin and others have gone with the guidance in the letter, and their 8130s reflect this.
If you're interested, here's the FAA letter:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On June 24, 2016, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued a policy deviation memorandum for FAA Order 8130.21H, Procedures for Completion and Use of the Authorized Release Certificate, FAA Form 8130-3, Airworthiness Approval Tag, Change I. The memorandum provides a deviation to allow an authorized individual to issue the FAA Form 8130-3, Authorized Release Certificate (tag) for the purpose of exporting an engine, propeller, or article without the use of the statement, "Export airworthiness approval - This engine/propeller/article meets the special requirements of(enter country)," in block 12.
Requiring this statement needlessly complicates issuance of the tag and hinders the global shipment of engines, propellers, and articles, especially when they are exported multiple times. However, an exporter must continue to include any other statements required by FAA Order 8130.2 I and the applicable bilateral agreements. For example, "This PMA part is not a critical component."
Authorized individuals have been directed to issue a tag for export as follows: for Articles
• Do not use the statement, "Export airworthiness approval -This article meets the special requirements of(enter country),"' from paragraph 4-5 L(9), in block 12.
• Do not use the statements in Appendix A, Figures A-14, A-15, A-16, and A-17 ("Export airworthiness approval - This article meets the special requirements of (enter country)" and "EXPORT."
• Do not use the statement, "Export airworthiness approval. No special import requirements for [enter name of country or jurisdiction] stated at time of issuance," from paragraph 4-5 L(l 0), in block 12.
• An exporter must continue to include any other statements required by FAA Order 8130.21 and the applicable bilateral agreements.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, on STC applications, Garmin and Aspen generally just exclude FAA types from their STC applications for Canada:
-G500 (not TXi) only has non FAA types listed, and many are legally installed on FAA types in Canada
-Aspen Evolution (TSO) TC STC only has non-FAA types on it – interestingly, their website spells out automatic acceptance by TC of FAA
The TC Staff Instruction on accepting foreign STCs is 513-003, and a copy is posted here: http://www.airwrweb.com/uploads/2/6/4/3/26438937/staff_instruction_513-003.pdf
Appendix B, information note b is the relevant bit.
There's been some positive movement here. This updated policy doesn't go into effect until the end of July, and we're looking into the full ramifications. But, it's looking good, and we'll have more to talk about soon.
CanucksUnlimited
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- Oct 10, 2021
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We are doing a complete panel upgrade in our Cessna 172B (C-FMVU) at Edenvale airport - we're also posting the full install on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/glenshangar This may be the first Dynon Certified install in Canada?
Always open to answering questions about the install if you have any.
Always open to answering questions about the install if you have any.
