Dynon Certified December 2021 Program Update

Bill Putney

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At some point one has to wonder if Dynon is trying to get things through the wrong ACO. I'm sure that Garmin is using the Wichita ACO which is the FAA branch in the midwest that is the "Small Airplane Directorite" for that region. There is no "Small Airplane Directorite" for Washington state, so I believe they have been working with the Seattle ACO. A great bunch of folks for sure, but they are principally "Transport Directorite" folks and they are overwhelmed with unpleasantness at Boeing and have been for more than a year now. Secondly, they tend to think in Transport class aircraft terms, unlike Wichita who's day to day meat and potatoes is light GA.

I wonder what the process is like to get Dynon's projects reassigned to the Wichita ACO?
 

JohnAJohnson

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I wonder what the process is like to get Dynon's projects reassigned to the Wichita ACO?

Rent a hangar, move autopilot certification to KS. Staff with stolen Garmin employees. Use their processes and the same FAA stakeholders. Then, if certification doesn't progress along with their competitors, they should be able to understand why.

Unless there is something we don't know about and a mass addition to the AML is coming soon, a change needs to happen. The delays are noticed by prospective customers and they are going elsewhere, and many existing customers with blank panels are beyond frustrated.

Or, I could be completely naive and Dynon is selling more glass than they can manufacture and as a company, they are quite satisfied with the status quo.
 

Bill Putney

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John,

Even if Dynon has a manufacturing limit, which is a reasonable business decision to take, they seem like a company that cares about their customers and want to do their best for them. I don't get that impression from Brand G, which is why I refuse to do business with them.

- Bill
 

Dynon

Dynon Staff
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I’d love to hear from Dynon about the 182 AutoPilot update. I know it was said that once the A36 got approved, the 182 would be right behind. Hopefully right behind doesn’t mean a year. Any updates?

We don't publish date predictions anymore because as others have pointed out, there are big parts of the schedule that we don't control. The short answer is that the 182 is coming along well! Making good progress, and it's possible that we might actually be surprised ourselves. All of that said, we don't hold all the cards here.
 

M20Driver

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IMHO-The FAA has a very odd methodology when it comes to adding airplanes to an AML. The Dynon Skyview has been in a lot of Certified and experimental aircraft by now and it seems like the EFIS software pretty much stays the same. All the servos in all the existing autopilots from various manufacturers use arms pushing rods or capstans moving yoke cables. The only outlier I know of is Brittian with their pneumatic bellows. It's been that way for 6 centuries. By now any airplane type that isn't brand new has had an autopilot applied to it. It seems like the FAA refuses to accept the historic record as a fact. They want to start at square one and reverify everything. "One definition of insanity is repeatedly doing the same things again, expecting a different outcome."

Yes there's a lot of brackets to design, but that can be outsourced pretty easily and get a DER stamp. An IA has to pass judgement on the installation before the airplane is returned to service. The IA has the last word with regard to applicability because every airplane that isn't fresh off the assembly line has probably had other STCs applied to it and any conflicts have to be resolved.

Flight testing? What?! Do Dynon's arms or capstans do something magically different than Garmin's or S-Tec's or anybody's? Does the manufacturer sticker on the servo change the flight characteristics of an airplane with an autopilot attached? Once you can test the servo on a bench and determine that it behaves like everyone else's, you make that part of the PMA specification not, something you have to test on every new addition to the AML.

So, how are Dynon servos different? The shear pin that's used as a fail safe against the servo jamming. I think everyone else is using spring washers and clutches that connect the output of the servo gearbox to the shaft that drives the arm or capstan. I actually like the shear pin better because, if the servo jams, I have to overpower it once and break the pin. Then I can carry on hand flying the airplane to my destination the same way I fly the airplane with the autopilot off. And, I can even leave that fuel stop and continue my trip with the arm or capstan merrily spinning on the servo output shaft. If I have a servo with washers and clutches, I have to fight that all the way to the ground. Essentially learning a new way to fly the airplane in mid air with passengers and weather to contend with until the wheels are on the ground. Then, do I really want to take off again and continue doing that? I probably wait for an avionics shop to open and send someone to where I am to remove/replace the servo, if they have a spare on hand that's been setup for my airplane. Less fun than finishing my flying and taking my airplane home to call a mechanic to do the remove/replace on a more leisurely schedule.

So what's the hold up? Yeah, pins are different than clutches. So, pins have been proven to work on a dozen types/models already on the AML. Is that going to change if you put the same servo in a different type/model? With the exception of brackets and rods/cables, which haven't changed in 60 years or more, what is the agency struggling to establish? The cynic in me suspects that there is something other than safety and scientific method at work here.
That last statement !! 2, mainly one, but 2 companies seem to get things done, and 2 others just can't win. Meanwhile I've watched 6 (experimental) planes roll out of neighboring hangars, with autopilots installed from multiple companies, and work flawless. It's frustrating things have to be so difficult so that we can install the simplest of a component in our planes (servos). The servos are simply doing what I do of keeping the needles lines up, only better. I know the FAA is slow, but perhaps a little favoritism is in play, whatever that looks like.
 
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That last statement !! 2, mainly one, but 2 companies seem to get things done, and 2 others just can't win. Meanwhile I've watched 6 (experimental) planes roll out of neighboring hangars, with autopilots installed from multiple companies, and work flawless. It's frustrating things have to be so difficult so that we can install the simplest of a component in our planes (servos). The servos are simply doing what I do of keeping the needles lines up, only better. I know the FAA is slow, but perhaps a little favoritism is in play, whatever that looks like.
Ok, I give. Who's the other company that seems to get things done with the FAA?
 

Bill Putney

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Well, brand G is one of them. The other is S-Tec, but they haven’t had a really new product since the 1970’s, so they really aren’t having to deal with the FAA to much.
 
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Well, brand G is one of them. The other is S-Tec, but they haven’t had a really new product since the 1970’s, so they really aren’t having to deal with the FAA to much.
Brand G...not in my planes! I hate the my AP gets referred to a g dealer. And I hate how every g dealer trashes any other brand. Besides, only having one option is never good. I like supporting the smaller guys and not a faceless corporation that sues or buys out the competition when they can't make a better product (u-avionix and UPSAT). The S-tec stuff just seems like it's dated and incredibly expensive. Thought you might have been talking about Tru track/ Bendix. I'm sure Andrew Barker has a non compete but that's the guy I'd be trying to poach.
 

Bill Putney

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I understand it, TruTrak/Bendix is having the same sort of trouble Dynon is. Also, it’s interesting that most of the certificated STC work for Trio is being done by a 3rd party consulting group (The STC Group) and they aren’t having brilliant success either.

I’d love to have a 10 min conversation with former Mayor Pete about the FAAs mission. Promoting Safety has fallen off the list of important things, in favor of hanging onto old ideas and butt covering process.
 
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STC group just got the Comanche certified. Has TT/Bendix gotten any more approvals done since the MAX fiasco? Are locations really going to be that much different than other legacy systems? Why do we have to start from scratch and prove the whole system rather than just prove the install. Honestly after reading things here on the little amount of feedback it sounds like nobody has any stones to green light things.

I will take a hard pass on the Mayor Pete talk. Got nothing good to say and it's not like you're going to get an answer that's related to the question in any way.
 

Spert

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I wish by 182 you meant PA32. Haha. If you do that PA32 autopilot I’d sure love to make an awesome video about it…. :)
I’ll second that, though I’ll leave the videos to Flying Monkey. I just want to install your autopilot in my PA32.
 
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I’ll second that, though I’ll leave the videos to Flying Monkey. I just want to install your autopilot in my PA32.
Third! We're 74 serial numbers apart. The AC100 is going in December ( if they have stock then), but will have no reservations about pulling it out and putting a Dynon in if its got auto trim.
 
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M20Driver

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The STEC 3100 now has over 100 planes on their AML and the Garmin GFC 500 has at least 100 with more in the works, with new approvals announced often. Both brought their autopilots to market around the same time as the HDX system. The FAA is approving autopilots, just not Dynon autopilots.
Exactly ! I just did this research last week, 5 different companies , 5 FSDO's, and one company hasn't missed a beat.:mad: My local Garmin guy told me a few days ago garmin is really frustrated with new approvals taking up to 3 months now, and he was serious. Our government is so broken.
 
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There will shortly be a new person heading the Aircraft Certification branch at the FAA. Let’s hope it makes a positive difference.

Interesting they announced this while sun n fun was going on. A few days after George Braly railed against the FAA for dragging their feet on approving his expanded aml for g100ul. After the FAA announced the EAGLE initiative to find a 100ll replacement. I'm not optimistic anything changes. Earl Lawrence's resume seemed promising for us spam cans after working with the EAA prior to the FAA.
 
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