HITS and vertical navigation

cdeerinck

I love flying!
Joined
Feb 17, 2015
Messages
11
Is there any plan to either have the AP follow an altitude profile of a flight plan or to at least have HITS display it?

I am thinking of a few VFR corridors in Class B transitions that would make this very helpful, either around LAX, or San Diego.

As it stands, we can put in a flight plan, but have to manually note the required altitudes during certain segments.
 

Dynon

Dynon Staff
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Jan 14, 2013
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Location
Woodinville, WA
Nothing promised, but it's definitely a feature we've talked about. Note that you will get vertical HITS on Direct-To legs to runways (airport info page > runways > highlight a runway with the arrow > direct-to the runway) when you have your veritical navigation VS and angular preferences set.
 

swatson999

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Oct 6, 2010
Messages
1,533
What about vertical nav when using a GPS navigator (430W, etc.) as the flight plan source?
 
J

Jrskygod

Guest
I turned my HITS off as I fly IFR and the HITS display without vertical guidance is misleading and confusing. I cannot understand the thought to bring such a half baked display to the market place. I guess the marketing guys got ahead of the engineers on this one. I do hope that the near future will bring us a REAL HITS display that has both horizontal and vertical guidance from a certified navigator source.
 

Dynon

Dynon Staff
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14,231
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Woodinville, WA
There isn't currently vertical HITS when paired to external IFR sources.

As for the notion that there's some marketing/engineering conflict that drives things - that narrative just isn't true here. Most of us - across marketing, sales, product, and engineering are all active small aircraft pilots, at the moment all flying exclusively E-AB aircraft. We have ratings from basic private all the way up to CFII. We eat our own dogfood, fly our own products, and use the features we build. That said, we endeavor to develop features and products that we think will delight as many of our customers as possible. What we've learned - over time - is that shipping features that contain enough value that many (but perhaps not all) of our customers find valuable is better than never shipping something that tries to be everything to everyone. That's what we've done here.
 

airguy

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Nov 10, 2008
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989
Location
Gods Country - west Texas
I turned my HITS off as I fly IFR and the HITS display without vertical guidance is misleading and confusing. I cannot understand the thought to bring such a half baked display to the market place. I guess the marketing guys got ahead of the engineers on this one. I do hope that the near future will bring us a REAL HITS display that has both horizontal and vertical guidance from a certified navigator source.

You're out of line here.

If they have a feature you don't like, then don't use it. I personally don't like the HITS feature, I turned it off. I did *NOT* go onto Dynon's support forums and badmouth them for including it, I just turned it off.
 

swatson999

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Oct 6, 2010
Messages
1,533
I turned my HITS off as I fly IFR and the HITS display without vertical guidance is misleading and confusing. I cannot understand the thought to bring such a half baked display to the market place. I guess the marketing guys got ahead of the engineers on this one. I do hope that the near future will bring us a REAL HITS display that has both horizontal and vertical guidance from a certified navigator source.

You're out of line here.

If they have a feature you don't like, then don't use it. I personally don't like the HITS feature, I turned it off. I did *NOT* go onto Dynon's support forums and badmouth them for including it, I just turned it off.

Whether he is or not is not really your call, unless Dynon appointed you a forum administrator.

I think he's correct, even if a bit harsh. HITS is not very useful without vertical guidance, as I've stated. Anybody can fly a straight line at altitude, but somethink like HITS is most useful during the approach and departure phases.

We're just saying, either gently or strongly, that this feature is only half-done at best and perhaps should have been further implemented before roll-out.
 
J

Jrskygod

Guest
Let me be perfectly clear here - Locally I am the biggest advocate for Dynon systems. I firmly believe that the equipment is excellent and the support is extraordinary. I believe that I made the best choice in my selection of Dynon over the other brands. I especially like the dual buss technology and that was the single most factor that made my decision over Garmin that utilizes a can buss. I also believe that Dynon has a feature rich operating system and continues to expand their offerings. I also recognize that the marketplace is vast and everyone's mission is different. The ability to turn off and on particular features is most admiral and beneficial to the users. The excellent documentation Dynon provides allows people with limited avionics skills to easily install the equipment without undue problems. The excellent operational videos allow a novice to get up to operational speed in short order.

All that being said - I stand firm in my belief that a HITS feature without vertical navigation defining the top and bottom of the box is only a half baked product. I understand the difference between feeding the PFD from the system GPS signal or from a certified IFR navigator and the necessity to clearly differentiate between the two. After installing the system update and flying my first approach with the HITS enabled it was abundantly clear there was a issue between the HITS and the HSI display. After a system update I always fly a few practice approaches VFR to insure things are as they should be, so in short order I was able to quickly determine there was no vertical navigation being displayed in HITS. I was quite surprised and disappointed after a call to customer support, to find out that vertical navigation was not available in HITS from a certified navigator. Additionally none of the sales information I have seen address this shortcoming and neither do the installation manuals and user guides. Dynon if I am incorrect in this please tell me where I can find this limitation in your published literature. Additionally I eagerly await the inclusion of vertical navigation from an external certified IFR navigator into the HITS feature.
 

gtae07

I love flying!
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Dec 10, 2013
Messages
64
Disclaimer: I'm an aerospace engineer but I don't work for Dynon (or anyone else in the homebuilt industry)

I think people are asking for two different things.

One is for the vertical component of an approach (glideslope) to be incorporated in the HITS boxes, like the current "to the runway" feature except using the vertical profile from a certified nav source.

The other is looking to be able to put in a flight plan in Skyview with altitudes, and then have Skyview "ramp" the HITS boxes up and down to the programmed altitudes.

These are different because of the way the vertical guidance portion is defined. For approach/glideslope, that's basically a fixed angle from a fixed point, so it's always going to be the same path in space no matter how fast you fly, how much power you have, or how maneuverable you are. It looks like this one is on Dynon's list for the future.

The second seems to be looking for full VNAV capability, and that's a lot harder to do. Are your climbs and descents defined by flight path angle, vertical speed, or holding an indicated speed? What power setting? How do you program this so the same feature in the same software works on a laden VW-powered Sonex and a lightly-loaded Rocket--and then works in those same airplanes when the former is light and the latter is heavy? Then, do you move the boxes along if I'm having trouble making the original climb/descent, or do you leave them in the original place and I'm always "behind the curve"? What if you base it on vertical speed, but then your airspeed changes? Redraw the boxes?

Large aircraft have these VNAV features in the FMS, but those features are built upon having a good known performance model for that specific aircraft type (which should be consistent across all such aircraft). They also typically have an autothrottle, or at least a means to display a requested power setting (sort of a flight director for the throttle). Our homebuilts may not even be consistent between two of the same model of aircraft, and I don't know of any homebuilts with autothrottle (and until we either get single-lever engine controls, or at minimum automatic mixture control, you probably won't see any).

That's why the boxes only display at the selected altitude in "normal" flight (and IIRC that's how they do it on G3X and AFS too, at least)--there are so many variables that can affect the way the boxes would be drawn that you can't feasibly do it on a "universal" avionics install. At least doing this gives you a "here's where I should be next" target that you can fly to as best as your aircraft allows.

From an engineering standpoint, yeah, a full VNAV capability could be added. It would cost Dynon a whole bunch of money to implement and test, and then to actually be able to use it right you'd have to do a comprehensive, detailed flight test program to get lift, drag, and power numbers specific to your aircraft. Most people wouldn't do that, and then Dynon would be getting a never-ending stream of phone calls and emails about how the HITS boxes aren't working right and their airplane can't make the climb that it's calling for.
 

swatson999

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Joined
Oct 6, 2010
Messages
1,533
Disclaimer:  I'm an aerospace engineer but I don't work for Dynon (or anyone else in the homebuilt industry)

I think people are asking for two different things.

One is for the vertical component of an approach (glideslope) to be incorporated in the HITS boxes, like the current "to the runway" feature except using the vertical profile from a certified nav source. 

This.
 
J

Jrskygod

Guest
For IFR and VFR work the HITS boxes I believe should show the normal parameters of 100 ft above and below the selected cruise altitude and for the IFR approach segment just follow the navigator like the V bars of the flight director do that would be a great visual aid.

From what I recall the HITS can be set up as it currently is for the cruise segment and a preconfigured approach display, its just that the Dynon software has not been developed to the point that it can follow the IFR navigators vertical guidance. This is as I understand it and if I am wrong please correct me.

Additionally from what I can find none the printed or online sales information, installation manuals or the pilot guides reference the vertical limitations of the system and again Dynon if I am incorrect here please reference where these limitations are published in your literature.
 

luigi692

Flying over wine country in Asti, Italy
Joined
Mar 3, 2012
Messages
10
I miss the vertical nav feature that is available on many other systems, smaller and bigger. Now I have to calculate my VS for a given Top of Descent or my Top of Descent for a given VS and airspeed. It would be nice to have something like 2 extra columns in the FP page, in the first I could enter the desired altitude over one of the points in the FP and the system would continuousy calculate (and display in the second column) the VS to get to that point at that altitude, much like it does now with distance and time.
 
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