Interface with Trutrack autopilot?

[beaver]

One of the benifits of some of your competitiors is the the autopilot is completly independent from the EFIS eliminating a single point of failure for both systems. I know AFS and GRT allow the EFIS to drive the trutrak autopilot head. If there is a problem, the trutrak can be driven from a 430W or drive itself. Will Skyview allow this sort of set-up? I beieve is is connected via a serial link for GPSS & GPSV. It would be great if you could allow for that type of set-up in future software releases.

 

[dynonsupport]

For us, the way to eliminate the single point of failure is to run a second Dynon EFIS in the airplane. At first, you might think this is expensive, but we're still less than a TruTrak:

Dynon D10A + two servos: $3700
TruTrak's cheapest Digiflight: $3850 (witch cannot be driven by an AFS or a GRT, you need a $5200 AP to do that)

So as you can see, you can get a totally redundant, independent autopilot from us for LESS than a TruTrak AP. And with us, you get a "free" backup EFIS too.

The control head that TruTrak sells has sensors in it, which is what allows it to operate independently. Unless you buy sensors, no software update can fix that. For us, a second Dynon EFIS in the plane does exactly the same thing. So we really do think we are already offering a better solution already, since a VFR pilot can use just $1500 in servos with a single EFIS, while the IFR pilot can get a backup EFIS and AP for only $2200 more. Both solutions cost less than a single TruTrak.

 

[palark]

How does the system work? Is one EFIS set up as the master and if that fails the second EFIS then automatically takes over, or would you have to re-enter your course details into the second EFIS and instruct it to take over?

 

[beaver]

Dynon support,
  Thanks for your quick responce. According to you responce in other threads inside this forum, there is no way for a D-10 to by linked up to a Skyview system beacause of the new communication buss. So the two units cannot share a flight plan. Although I do like the redundancy fact and getting a completely secondary back-up EFIS for less money. There is one major point that you are lacking. If I want to have my autopilot navigate from a flight plan in my EFIS, Dynon does not offer a way to do that that doesn't have a single point of failure. If my skyview craters, then so does the A/P... :-[

    Also, If I want my A/P to fly on victor-airways, transition direct to a FAF, transition to a hold, or go missed, I can get all of those features from running my Trutrak via a 430W. Does your A/P allow it to  accept commends directly from a 430W and bypass a failed EFIS?

BTW, I'm not bashing here. I really like your new Skyview system but I want to make sure I understand the capabilities before I make the plunge. I already own a Trutrak. And if I can't get it to talk to a Skyview, its not the end of the world. I believe the Dynon servos can fit fairly easily as a drop-in replacement. But If I can't have the A/P transition to a missed approach, then perhaps it not right for me.

 

[PhantomPholly]

Dynon support,
  Thanks for your quick responce. According to you responce in other threads inside this forum, there is no way for a D-10 to by linked up to a Skyview system beacause of the new communication buss. So the two units cannot share a flight plan. Although I do like the redundancy fact and getting a completely secondary back-up EFIS for less money. There is one major point that you are lacking. If I want to have my autopilot navigate from a flight plan in my EFIS, Dynon does not offer a way to do that that doesn't have a single point of failure. If my skyview craters, then so does the A/P... :-[

    Also, If I want my A/P to fly on victor-airways, transition direct to a FAF, transition to a hold, or go missed, I can get all of those features from running my Trutrak via a 430W. Does your A/P allow it to  accept commends directly from a 430W and bypass a failed EFIS?

BTW, I'm not bashing here. I really like your new Skyview system but I want to make sure I understand the capabilities before I make the plunge. I already own a Trutrak. And if I can't get it to talk to a Skyview, its not the end of the world. I believe the Dynon servos can fit fairly easily as a drop-in replacement. But If I can't have the A/P transition to a missed approach, then perhaps it not right for me.

No vendor is all things to all people.

As for using a D-10A as backup for Skyview to drive your AP, not a problem.  Since both use the same servos, just install a switch to control which EFIS drives the AP.  However (and obviously), the D-10A has no flight planning capability, so you will need a backup GPS or SL-30 or something similar to provide course info to the D-10A.

Dynon is the low-price leader for having an EFIS + AP.  It is not, at least yet, a Flight Management System.  It may grow into that, depending on demand from their user base.  Or, it may not - the "hard IFR" crowd is not Dynon's principal customer base.

The combination you are looking for exists a couple of other ways, always for more money than you would pay for a Dynon system (hey, nothing is free!).  My personal solution pre-dates Dynon's AP, and consists of a GNS 480 plus TT II VSGV plus 496 for backup GPS (can drive the AP for non-precision approaches).  A Dynon D-180 was then the obvious choice at the right price for what I lacked - an inexpensive EFIS to display all that info and to allow me to hand-fly in IFR if the soup.  Unfortunately for you and many others, Garmin discontinued the Apollo GPS line.

Today the market is getting "fuzzier."  GRT (and, I think, Advanced) are attempting to be an FMS in addition to EFIS - but with both you must have an external AP, leaving 2 points of failure.  MGL is going down that road, too, but my research is rapidly falling out of date since I made my decisions 2 years ago (I'm pretty sure MGL can flight plan and drive the AP, but don't know if they have a data source for all the airways/approaches/etc. yet).  In addition, MGL is working on an AP, so if they do get the EFB data it will be an all-in-one solution.  For an in-dash EFB not claiming to be a primary EFIS, the Flight Cheetah has some excellent features but t will not "drive an autopilot" either.  However, it and perhaps some of the other EFB solutions provide excellent situational awareness, and may one day provide outputs suitable to drive an AP, too.

The choices are tough, and everyone is improving daily.  Good luck with your selections!

 

[dynonsupport]

First, we don't have fail-over on the current AP. One of your EFIS units is your AP. If that EFIS fails, you have no AP for the rest of the flight. This is no better and no worse than a stand alone AP like a TT. There is a single point of failure in the plane that can take out the AP. But since you have two EFIS units in the plane, there is no single failure that takes away your PFD.

If you fly with a single EFIS and a single standalone AP, there is a single failure that can take away your AP and a single failure that can take away your PFD. So we are more redundant in some very critical ways.

SkyView will make this better- any functioning screen that has a functioning AHRS can control the AP. So if you install two screens and two AHRS units, you'd need either both screens or both AHRS units to fail in order to lose your AP. That's pretty serious redundancy. Even better, SkyView will have integrated mapping and flight planning, so there's NO external dependencies to making sure you can fly as normal. It's a very clean, full redundancy.

You really have no AP redundancy in a standalone AP. While you may be worried about the EFIS failing, the standalone AP controller is just as likely to fail. If that fails, no AP. So what you really need to think about is what do I need to fly the plane safely?

If you answer is EFIS OR AP:
1) Standalone EFIS, standalone AP. Either can fail. you're OK.
2) Two Dynon EFIS units. Either can fail, you're OK.

If your answer is that you always need a functioning AP:
1) Standalone EFIS, standalone AP. If the AP fails, you're not OK
2) Two Dynon current EFIS units. If the one driving the AP fails, you're not OK
2) Two Dynon SkyView EFIS units. Either can fail, you're OK.

If your answer is that you always need a functioning EFIS:
1) Standalone EFIS, standalone AP. If the EFIS fails, you're not OK
2) Two Dynon EFIS units. Either can fail, you're OK.

You're never worse with two Dynon EFIS units than you are with an EFIS and a standalone AP.

The only time you are worse is if you only buy one Dynon EFIS and treat that as if it's you AP. Of course that is less reliable, but it's also a lot cheaper. Spend the money for a dedicated AP controller (a second Dynon EFIS) and you're always better off (and you still saved money!).

 

[beaver]

Very good point. Thank you.

I know its not currently an option, but hopefully some day the Sky view will allow selection of victor airways, holds, or FAF's to drive the A/P too. Personally, I'll buy one now with the hopes that that is a software upgrade sometime in the next 2 years.

 

[PhantomPholly]

First, we don't have fail-over on the current AP. One of your EFIS units is your AP. If that EFIS fails, you have no AP for the rest of the flight. This is no better and no worse than a stand alone AP like a TT. There is a single point of failure in the plane that can take out the AP. But since you have two EFIS units in the plane, there is no single failure that takes away your PFD.

Hey Dynon,

Did I give bad information?  Is it not possible to have a switch control WHICH Dynon EFIS is currently "controlling" the AP?

Keep me honest!

 

[dynonsupport]

No, it is not possible to do that. All servos and EFIS units are on the same DSAB network, so there's nowhere to install the switch, and there are also software reasons why it won't work.

 

[palark]

Dynon support stated that if uou have 2 SkyViews then you will always have an AP and a PFD. Again I ask, how does it work?

If the EFIS controlling the AP function fails, do you have then enter your course details into the functioning EFIS?

 

[dynonsupport]

It's all described in detail in our earlier post, but basically, with our current generation, one of your EFIS screens always controls the AP, so if that one fails, and you have another EFIS (that's your redundant ADAHARS), you would lose your AP but not your other flight instruments.

With SkyView, in contrast, the system is more integrated. If you have dual ADAHRS, dual screens, and any one of those fails, the AP keeps working, because it's tied to the SYSTEM and not an individual screen/ADAHRS. So essentially, there's no perceived "master" screen as far as the autopilot is concerned, like in the current gen. As long as one screen and one ADAHRS and servos are still alive, they'll just work automagically.

 

[pilotmattk]

So what you really need to think about is what do I need to fly the plane safely?

If you answer is EFIS OR AP:
1) Standalone EFIS, standalone AP. Either can fail. you're OK.
2) Two Dynon EFIS units. Either can fail, you're OK.

If your answer is that you always need a functioning AP:
1) Standalone EFIS, standalone AP. If the AP fails, you're not OK
2) Two Dynon current EFIS units. If the one driving the AP fails, you're not OK
2) Two Dynon SkyView EFIS units. Either can fail, you're OK.

If your answer is that you always need a functioning EFIS:
1) Standalone EFIS, standalone AP. If the EFIS fails, you're not OK
2) Two Dynon EFIS units. Either can fail, you're OK.

You're never worse with two Dynon EFIS units than you are with an EFIS and a standalone AP.

The only time you are worse is if you only buy one Dynon EFIS and treat that as if it's you AP. Of course that is less reliable, but it's also a lot cheaper. Spend the money for a dedicated AP controller (a second Dynon EFIS) and you're always better off (and you still saved money!).

I have to bring up the possibility (make that probability) of software bugs.  I'm not criticizing your software engineers because bugs are a fact of technology. As complexity increases so does the probability of defects. The statement "You're never worse with two Dynon EFIS units than you are with an EFIS and a standalone AP." would seem to be a fallacy because of that fact.  If I were to update my Dynon system with software that contains defects, not only are the PFD's impacted, but my auto-pilot as well.  Perhaps it's possible to upgrade the PFD's one at a time, but that's still no guarantee (to me) that a bug won't impact the SYSTEM.

I'm about 18-24 months from making an EFIS decision, but whatever I go with will have to support an independent autopilot.  For IFR I want primary EFIS instrumentation, backed up by separate instrumentation (not same brand), and an autopilot that can run alone.

Despite all the benefits and arguments for going with the built in Skyview Autopilot, I hope external autopilot support is somewhere in future product plans.  I really liked the system when I saw it at Oshkosh.  The thin panels and small parts seemed lighter and much more compact than the competition.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[PhantomPholly]

I have to bring up the possibility (make that probability) of software bugs.  I'm not criticizing your software engineers because bugs are a fact of technology. As complexity increases so does the probability of defects. The statement "You're never worse with two Dynon EFIS units than you are with an EFIS and a standalone AP." would seem to be a fallacy because of that fact.  If I were to update my Dynon system with software that contains defects, not only are the PFD's impacted, but my auto-pilot as well.  Perhaps it's possible to upgrade the PFD's one at a time, but that's still no guarantee (to me) that a bug won't impact the SYSTEM.

I'm about 18-24 months from making an EFIS decision, but whatever I go with will have to support an independent autopilot.  For IFR I want primary EFIS instrumentation, backed up by separate instrumentation (not same brand), and an autopilot that can run alone.

Despite all the benefits and arguments for going with the built in Skyview Autopilot, I hope external autopilot support is somewhere in future product plans.  I really liked the system when I saw it at Oshkosh.  The thin panels and small parts seemed lighter and much more compact than the competition.

Thanks,
Matt

Matt,

I'm not sure why you feel that the possibility of software bugs in your EFIS is more of a risk than software bugs in your AP.  In any event, when there is a new software release the prudent thing for anyone to do is either to wait to upgrade until others have flown it extensively or fly in VMC until you are personally satisfied that everything is working as expected.  It's really no different than putting in a new engine in your plane - you need to break it in under "reduced risk" conditions.

There are so many design philosophies today of what defines an "EFIS" that folks are tempted to criticize system X because it lacks a feature that system Y has - yet virtually all of those features can be achieved in other ways.  Moving map?  On all IFR GPS receivers now.  Flight Planning on Airways and Approach Plates?  You can buy a Garmin GMX 200, which can then drive your AP but has nothing at all to do with PFD.  TruTrak takes a different approach, adding PFD to their top of the line AP but no moving map at all.

At the end of the day it is a personal choice that can be aided by:
1.  Making a list of requirements for your entire system (radios, EFIS, EFB, etc.)
2.  Deciding on a budget
3.  Working with your requirements and budget to maximize the features most important to you

In all honesty if you are still more than a year away from a decision I would not even look today (well, I might peek occasionally!).  The reason is that the landscape will be far different tomorrow than it is today, and your research today will become time wasted tomorrow.

 

[pilotmattk]

I did not say that there is an increased risk of bugs in the efis vs the AP.  That's a straw man argument.  I would estimate the risk of software issues to be roughly equal.  I agree with testing in vfr and all, but you don't always catch everything.  Even certified units have had problems in this regard.  

Actually with 2 systems the risk of failure of any one piece (efis or ap) is increased.  However the risk of failure of both at once is significantly decreased.  I really like the hardware redundancy in the skyview system,  but I'm skeptical of the software side just as I am with all products.   (I don't want a TT efis for the same reason, the AP is embedded).

Do things change in 18 months?  Yea, alot!  I still feel it's beneficial to see what's out there, where it's headed and most importantly what issues are arising in the field.  This will weigh heavily on the very expensive decision I have to make.  In my view the skyview will be seasoned just enough when it comes time for me to buy.

 

[jakej]

I'm with you Matt. In our part of the world (or any place other than the USA) there are issues with Terrain and SynVis (applies to most manufacturers) that's why I advise against diving in and buying early due to the unknown issues that could exist with software as well and therefore the higher costs of freight and also time delays if units have to be shipped back. Better to wait an let someone closer to do the R & D work

Jake J

 

[dynonsupport]

Jake,
As I mentioned in the other post, there is no issue with terrain resolution anywhere. It just doesn't ship on the unit due to size constraints, but it is on our website for download.

 

[jakej]

Great, thanks. Is there a way to see this resolution other than via a Skyview unit ?

Jake J

 

[dynonsupport]

Jake,
What do you mean by "see this resolution?"

 

[jakej]

It would be nice to see a picture of what we can expect, in regards to resolution, here in Australia. Past experience with other vendors has left us with much less detail on the screen than you have in North America. A screen picture of say the Sydney area would be most helpful for those contemplating purchasing the SV.

Jake J

 

[dynonsupport]

I will try and get a screen capture done soon, but trust me when I say the resolution is the same everywhere. It was taken with the same satellite, processed in the same way, and stored in the same way. Any screenshot you have seen from us is a valid resolution for anywhere on the planet (+/- 80 degrees latitude at least).