NavWorx ADS-B In Compatibility

[mmarmol]

A question for the moderator....
Is Dynon planning to support the NavWorx ADS-B In receivers (ADS-600) over the ARINC-429 connection?
From researching on the internet I have found that it is currently supported over the RS-232 connection but that only allows for traffic. Through the ARINC-429 it would be possible to get both traffic AND weather information!
In the NavWorx website it seems to imply that the compatibility is in work but I am not sure what the state of affairs is now.
Thanks for the info!

 

[dynonsupport]

We don't have any plans to support ARINC-429 from an ADS-B device because weather is actually availible over RS-232 as well. ARINC costs more from both Dynon and NavWorx so there isn't much reason to use this. when RS-232 will work fine.

 

[rfinch]

By chance I am trying to understand all this ADS-B stuff at the moment and see this thread just started.

I am building an RV-9A and plan on using Dynon's Skyview display and Mode-S transponder. I plan on mounting the usual Com and transponder antennas (ordered from Delta Pop Aviation), and also their UAT antenna.

So my question is, if I get the NavWorx ADS600-B transceiver, will it connect to the Skyview and show traffic and weather? Where or how could the Skyview show the additional info like METARS, NOTAMS, etc that FIS-B provide? 

It's OK with me if this is not ready now, but definitely planned for.

 

[dynonsupport]

So your Dynon transponder will have ADS-B out built in, but not ADS-B in. So if you think of an ADS-B "transceiver" as a "transmitter" plus a "receiver", your transponder already has the transmitter side. So ideally, you just want a UAT receiver to complete the whole ADS-B loop. Navworx has(had?) a receive only box, but it's not clear that they sell it any more. The transceiver costs a bunch more, and it buys you more than you need. It also looks like there will be other affordable ADS-B receivers coming to market within the next year. So nothing against Navworx, but their transceiver product won't be the most cost effective path for Dynon customers.

At the moment, our products don't support ADS-B weather, though they can get traffic in from devices that output TIS format traffic. The Navworks receiver does have this capability, by the way, but that's ONLY traffic that comes out over the TIS format data stream.

What you really want out of a device is traffic and weather together over a common format. There's an FAA protocol for that (also called GDL-90), and it's possible that we'll support that, or perhaps some well-priced device's proprietary output. In any case, we're not solid on our path there, but conceptually, that's what you really want out of a device.

So our generic advice might be to wait for one of those receiver only boxes to make it to market, along with our software support for traffic and weather/traffic via a combined protocol.

Now, the ADS-B hardware landscape is changing quickly, so today's answer might a bit different than tomorrows'. But the key here is, if you have a Dynon transponder, you already have the transmitter side of the ADS-B equation.

I'm sure that's clear as mud, but basically, as you can tell, the ADS-B market is not quite there yet.

 

[rfinch]

Well...I see I need to understand this ADS-B better. Fortunately I'm a year away from buying all the panel goodies.

But if I wanted to buy today, if I got Navworx's ADS-B transceiver, then it sounds like I wouldn't need Dynon's mode-S transponder. Would Navworx's or another full ADS-B transceiver work with Dynon Skyview using RS-232? In other words, for those of us that are still building and don't have legacy equipment, why bother with a mode-S transponder...why not just use a single UAT transceiver on 978 MHz?

 

[dynonsupport]

If you don't have a Mode-S, you still need a Mode-C. Just a UAT doesn't get you away from the transponder requirement. So you can spend $2,200 on our Mode-S and meet the ADS-B requirement, or you can spend $1,800 on a Mode-C and then thousands more on a ADS-B Transceiver.

Plus, if you have a UAT, you have to set your transponder code twice, once in the transponder, once in the UAT.

We can't promise any support for Navworx or any other ADS-B device at this point, but we should know more in a few months as we implement weather.

 

[mmarmol]

Sorry that I did not reply earlier but have not had a chance. First off, thanks to the moderator for replying.

Second, I've been looking at NavWorx pretty closely as I have been intending to equip. They sell a product called ADS600 that has only receive capabilities that will give me the ADS-B In capability I am looking for. It is priced at $1,800.

From looking at the installation guide you guys already support TIS-B through RS-232 on the Navworx. Looking at the discussion above, do you know if Navworx supports the GDL-90 protocol? If they do, is GDL-90 a format that you guys are planning on supporting when you guys roll in weather?

One last question...any approximate non-commital ballpark-sized idea of when we may see weather integrated? ;D

Thanks for all the help and sorry to pester!

 

[dynonsupport]

While the Navworx site shows the ADS600 as available, if you try and order one, they won't sell it to you. That's not a product they are currently comfortable selling for a variety of reasons. At least that's what they told us when we tried to get one a few weeks ago.

The Navworx devices output GDL-90. We can't yet say for sure if we'll have GDL-90 support for our ADS-B devices.

As for timeframe: next year. That's truly as close as we can say right now.

 

[Brantel]

Dynon guys,

Did I read somewhere that the original TIS format only supports something like 8 targets and a heading limitation of 45deg?  If so that would be a major plus for the ARINC support which can do 31 targets and 1 degree heading.

Also I have seen the later devices are supporting the new remote setting available in the 327, 330 ect. that allows those xponders to send the squawk code to the UAT.  It would be an advantage for Dynon to also be able to do this in the future.

 

[dynonsupport]

The Garmin 330 TIS format that we support has the following restrictions:
8 Targets total (but these are the 8 highest priority)
1 degree relative position from your aircraft
1/8 mile relative distance from your aircraft
45 degree heading of TARGET

So the 45 degree resolution is not that big of a deal. It's not limited to 45 degrees relative to your aircraft, it's just the heading of the aircraft to 45 degrees.

The above limitations are actually the limits of what TIS sends a client aircraft, so there was no reason for a protocol with more support.

There is still no reason for us to do ARINC for traffic. To support a UAT more fully, what you want to support is the GDL-90 serial format, which supports everything ADS-B does. We're looking into that.

On another note, I see you went with a Garmin 327 transponder. I thought I'd throw out there Dynon's opinion on how to equip for ADS-B. This assumes you are buying a new transponder and live in the USA, and have an experimental plane. The math is different if you looking to add ADS-B to a plane that already has a transponder, although not so much if you are willing to sell your current transponder.

Scenario 1: Mode C transponder and UAT RX/TX
Mode C: $1,800 (Garmin 327)
Certified UAT TX/RX: $5,000?
Uncertified UAT: $2,800

Price: $4,600 - $6,800

The issue is that right now, the ADS-B OUT rule requires a CERTIFIED UAT. There is only one thing in a plane that requires certification, and that's the device used for primary separation. This is the transponder today, but will also be the UAT if it's used to comply with the ADS-B out rule. Maybe a vendor will get the FAA to accept their device, but that is a risk if you buy an uncertified UAT today.

Scenario 2: Mode S transponder and UAT RX
Mode S: $2,200 (Dynon Transponder) / $2,400 (Trig TT22)
Uncertified UAT RX: $1,700

Price: $3,900 - $4,100

In this case, you have certified ADS-B out in your transponder. Now you can buy an uncertified UAT receiver, get weather and traffic, and have no concerns that you won't meet the ADS-B out mandate in the future. Plus, you spent less than you did with an uncertified UAT.

A Mode-S transponder really is the safest and cheapest way to get certified, approved ADS-B out capabilities.

 

[Brantel]

Good info Guys!

I went with a 327 because:

I don't have a Skyview (yet)
I did not want to have to modify the panel for the Trig
It was the least expensive option at the time to get me thru a year or so. (I got a super deal)
I am waiting till the dust settles on all of this stuff before figuring out what to do about ads-b

I agree the GDL or some other all encompassing serial protocol is the way to go if it can do it all....

One question you guys might know:
If one is squawking ADS-B out over mode S 1090ES, will they send the traffic back on the UAT 978 freq? Do they send it back on both?

 

[dynonsupport]

The ground stations will convert between 1090ES and 978 for traffic, assuming you are transmitting on one of them. There's a bit that you can set that says "hey, I'm talking on 1090 but listening on 978MHz." It doesn't go back on both frequencies.

 

[Brantel]

Good info...thanks!

 

[airguy]

Dynon - any update on uncertified UAT RX only recommendations? I already have your transponder installed for ADSB-Out.

 

[nigelspeedy]

I have the skyview transponder and a G-430 GPS/Nav/Com. My hope was that I could use the position from the certified GPS linked to the Dynon Xpdr to meet the ADS-B out requirements. I note the following in the install manual:

The FAA has recently mandated TSO C166b for NextGen implementations, and a TSO-C166b software upgrade for the transponder is planned. This means that currently, the SV-XPNDR-26X’s ADS-B transmissions are not at a high enough integrity level to meet the FAA’s 2020 ADS-B equipment mandate.

How far away is the required software upgrade for the Dynon transponder to allow it to meet the FAA requirement? Without the update it would appear that the Dynon transponder does not provide ADS-B capability. Once said software upgrade is installed with the G-430 provide sufficient integrity/accuracy to be coupled to the Dynon transponder to meet the FAA ADS-B out requirement?

Appreciate any answers.

 

[dynonsupport]

I have the skyview transponder and a G-430 GPS/Nav/Com. My hope was that I could use the position from the certified GPS linked to the Dynon Xpdr to meet the ADS-B out requirements. I note the following in the install manual:

The FAA has recently mandated TSO C166b for NextGen implementations, and a TSO-C166b software upgrade for the transponder is planned. This means that currently, the SV-XPNDR-26X’s ADS-B transmissions are not at a high enough integrity level to meet the FAA’s 2020 ADS-B equipment mandate.

How far away is the required software upgrade for the Dynon transponder to allow it to meet the FAA requirement? Without the update it would appear that the Dynon transponder does not provide ADS-B capability. Once said software upgrade is installed with the G-430 provide sufficient integrity/accuracy to be coupled to the Dynon transponder to meet the FAA ADS-B out requirement?

Appreciate any answers.

We do not have an estimated date when this update will be available.

 

[dbuds2]

Is there a problem with connecting the SV GPS to SV-XPNDR GPS IN pin 3, even if it's not up the the TSO 166B standard? 

Just trying to avoid another wiring job when the XPNDR software is updated.

Assume the XPNDR pin 3 will be connected to a SV serial TX pin, correct?? Or directly to the GPS TX?

 

[dynonsupport]

Yes, there is a problem with that. The direct GPS connection to the transponder is for certified GPS signals only. We already pass along SkyView's uncertified "low integrity" GPS fix to the transponder, and the transponder can't understand the format that the SV-GPS-250 puck can output anyway.

 

[dbuds2]

Thanks Dynon, I'll be ready when you say its ok to connect.

 

[RVDan]

One question about the use of Mode S for ADS B out. When you are in areas where there is no ground station coverage, aren't you depedent on the 978 UAT transciever for aircraft to aircraft traffic? As I understand it, Mode S does not have an aircraft to aircraft "in" capability. This would be important when low enough to be out of ground station coverage.

Dan