Panel Planning

[Brantel]

I have posted below three versions of a panel.  Lets just call these Full IFR, IFR Lite (no such thing I know), and VFR.  Depending on how my sourcing of funds works out for this project, I may have to make certain compromises in what I can get.  The goal would be to make the layout of the lesser systems upgradable to the original full IFR plan.  I also do not want a ton of gear in the lower end panels that would not work in the more advanced system.  I understand that this cannot happen completely due to the cost associated with the higher end items.  Things like the intercom would be sold and replaced with a true audio panel, the com radio could also be sold for a good part of the entry price.

The audio panel pictured here is just a placeholder for most likely a PMA8000.  I already have the portable GPS.

I know the 480 is a great product but I am not interested in investing in an obsolete orphan.  So far I have seen no good deals on clearance stock so I don't think many of them are sitting on the shelf.

Panel will be 1.5 to 2" longer than stock so all the switches and engine controls will go down there.

Here is the full up IFR version with AP, price comes in around $28K, full two axis advanced AP:

Here is the IFR Lite version, price comes in around $15.1K, Medium Grade Two axis AP (not shown is the AP74 right below the HS34):

Here is the VFR version, price comes in around $10K, Low End 2 axis AP with integral control only:

Any thoughts on a more cost effective way to do this with the ultimate goal of being able to upgrade to the full platform in the future without tearing the panel apart for each upgrade?

 

[Etienne]

Re: Panel Planing

What about designing your panel in a Cad package and getting it laser-cut? Then if you want to completely re-arrange your instruments, you can fiddle the Cad drawing, get a new panel cut and simply drill out the rivets holding the old one in place, bolt all the instruments you're keeping into the new one and add the new toys before riveting the new shiny panel in place...

That will give you the best flexibility, and with a bit of fore-thought and clever use of electrical connectors you can probably refit a complete panel in a weekend...

 

[Brantel]

For Dynon Support....

One question that has been created by a comment posted on another forum.

What is Dynon's response to the fact that most people with AP's and EFIS's that use them in IMC have the ability to rely on the AP to help them in the event they loose the EFIS.

Now with your system, the EFIS is the AP so if you loose it, your AP is also lost.

Now I know that most people using a EFIS in IMC have dual EFIS's of which either could be configured to run the AP.  

How hard is it to do a DASB reconfig in the air and is it feasable to do this in the event of an AP controlling EFIS goes tipup while in IMC?

Next question is that of the pitot data being lost.  How much is this going to impact the EFIS's ability to control the AP?

 

[dynonsupport]

We'd never suggest someone fly in IMC with only one EFIS, any brand.

So you have two, right?

Think of it this way: One is your EFIS, one is your EFIS + AP. Loose the EFIS, you still have EFIS+AP. Loose the EFIS+AP, you still have EFIS. You basically have the same level of redundancy as you would have if you had alternatively configured with a single set of flight instruments backed up with an autopilot.

If you have a standalone AP and it dies, you have no AP. A Dynon equipped plane would be no different. Loss of one device in the plane can mean loss of AP, but that's true in any install.

We aren't able to answer the loss of pitot question yet, as the AP is still in development. We are aiming for a system that will still control the plane just fine with no pitot, but this is not a promise yet.

Remember though, loss of pitot can be a problem with any AP, since it may try and hold airspeed to prevent a stall. Of course, as airspeed bleeds off, it will keep pointing the nose down trying to get more airspeed. It's a tradeoff between stall prevention and pitot loss.

 

[Brantel]

Well,

Got home Wednesday night and find out my wife and I are having another baby! Needless to say, this was not part of the plan but seems it is God's plan for us so my airplane must take on a different scope....

No way am I giving up nor do I want it to take 10 more years for wheels up so here is the new plan. Used engine and basic VFR only panel.

I am pretty much settled on this equipment for the following reasons:

The D180 seems to be the best value for a EFIS/EM when concidering the fact that you can get a 2 axis AP for 1500 more. I also get the AOA for free.

I want at least a full nav com due to the fact that with this and my existing 296, I can do "practice" ADF/VOR/LOC/ILS based approaches to stay current with my instrument ticket.

I want the HS34 for the fact that it makes working with the D180 a breeze as far as setting alt, switching nav sources for the HSI, working the HSI etc. The HS34 will also give audio alerts and pass thru the auto frequency loading to the SL30 from the 296.

I want the AP74 because it does many things to make the built in AP usable.

The backup instruments are there just in case the screen goes black. Don't need anything else, just look out the window and listen.

The 296 I already have.

The SL30 because there is no other option for a Nav/Com that works so well with the D180's HSI.

The transponder is also about the best value for an all digital model.

The intercom is well.... the intercom.

I will be adding an annunciator strip ALA Ironflight between the SL30 and the intercom.

The panel will be 1.5-2" longer than stock and that is where most of the switches and engine controls will go.

I am pretty much settled on this equipment. Any thoughts on the layout and or any more cost effective solutions keeping these requirements in mind?

Total cost for what is shown here less the 296 plus the 2 servos is $13,102

 

[PilotKris]

Just a few thoughts...

You didn't say if it was the GTX330 or GTX327 xpndr. I'd spend the modest extra money for the 330 as it will give you traffic (one day).

The 330 will not show traffic on the 296 (only the 496) but the 496 will snap in with no modifications when your budget allows. In fact, when garmin comes out with their new unit (596?), used 496 should be a bargin.

PilotKris

 

[Brantel]

Its going to be a 327 the 330 is twice the price of the 327..  There are very few places the 330 will work around here so my plan is to do something with a Zaon  or similar (if there is a better value out then) in the future.

Just a few thoughts...

You didn't say if it was the GTX330 or GTX327 xpndr. I'd spend the modest extra money for the 330 as it will give you traffic (one day).

The 330 will not show traffic on the 296 (only the 496) but the 496 will snap in with no modifications when your budget allows. In fact, when garmin comes out with their new unit (596?), used 496 should be a bargin.

PilotKris

 

[PhantomPholly]

Ok, if you want the latest and greatest you might also wish to consider a new unit from Honeywell, the KNS 770. Looks to have all the features of the 430/530W plus airways plus more (e.g. ChartView without an add-on GMX-200). Throw away your paper charts...

I believe they are planning on making the price competitive with a GNS 430.

 

[PilotKris]

Throw away your paper charts...

Didn't we cover this in another thread?...

Having Victor Airways on your GPS/MFD doesn't mean you don't need paper charts. There is a TON of (manditory) additional information on the enoute/area charts that isn't found on MFDs.

This guy is also not interested in the latest/greatest gadget, he needs the most bang for the buck (with the new baby and all...)

PilotKris

 

[Etienne]

Another suggestion would be to put the altimeter under the ASI, then move the HS34 and AP74 up to be in line with the D180... It looks a bit hodge-podge in the picture, and if you do lose electrics, the scan between alt and asi is quite wide.

But it's YOUR panel! You're the one who's going to be sitting in front of it

 

[Brantel]

Thought about that and most people say.. Move the Alt to the right so you do not have to switch hands or cross over to adjust the setting.

If I loose the Dynon, the scan will be between the ASI, 296, and the ALT but this is all VFR so mostly I will be looking outside.

Another suggestion would be to put the altimeter under the ASI, then move the HS34 and AP74 up to be in line with the D180... It looks a bit hodge-podge in the picture, and if you do lose electrics, the scan between alt and asi is quite wide.

But it's YOUR panel! You're the one who's going to be sitting in front of it  

 

[Ken_Kopp]

What is the FAA policy for carrying current charts?
The term "charts" is not found in the FAA's Part 91 regulations (other than for large and turbine-powered multiengine airplanes in 91.503[a]). The specific FAA regulation, FAR 91.103 "Preflight Actions," states that each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. What is not specifically addressed in the regulation is a requirement for charts. You should always carry a current chart for safety's sake but is not mandatory. An expired chart will not show new frequencies or newly constructed obstructions, some of which could be tall enough to be a hazard along your route of flight.

The only FAA/FAR requirements that pertain to charts are:
Title 14 CFR section 91.503[a] (Large and Turbojet powered aircraft)
Title 14 CFR section 135.83 (Air Carriers-Little Airplane)
Title 14 CFR section 121.549 (Air Carrier-Big Airplanes)
The FAA has rendered interpretations that have stated the foregoing. The subject of current charts was thoroughly covered in an article in the FAA's July/August 1997 issue of FAA Aviation News. That article was cleared through the FAA's Chief Counsel's office. In that article the FAA stated the following:
"You can carry old charts in your aircraft." "It is not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated charts in the aircraft."
"Not all pilots are required to carry a chart." "91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and multiengine airplanes to have charts." "Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements."
..."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.
..."the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.
"If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken."
If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation professional are telling pilots something other than the foregoing then you are incorrect.


Not my words - straight off the FAA website.

Regards

Ken

 

[PhantomPholly]

Throw away your paper charts...

Didn't we cover this in another thread?...

lol - no, this is a completely different conversation...

Having Victor Airways on your GPS/MFD doesn't mean you don't need paper charts. There is a TON of (manditory) additional information on the enoute/area charts that isn't found on MFDs.

Yes, I heard you the first time - and this time it is YOU not paying attention...



Jeppeson ChartView provides full electronic CHARTS and APPROACH PLATES, displaying them on the unit.

This guy is also not interested in the latest/greatest gadget, he needs the most bang for the buck (with the new baby and all...)PilotKris

Exactly - which is why, priced competitively with the 430W (which he is considering), this unit IS the best bang for the certified IFR buck. Being built-in to the panel, it would qualify as an EFB - thus both legally and practically negating the need for paper charts.

 

[PhantomPholly]

What is the FAA policy for carrying current charts?
The term "charts" is not found in the FAA's Part 91 regulations (other than for large and turbine-powered multiengine airplanes in 91.503[a]). The specific FAA regulation, FAR 91.103 "Preflight Actions," states that each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. What is not specifically addressed in the regulation is a requirement for charts. You should always carry a current chart for safety's sake but is not mandatory. An expired chart will not show new frequencies or newly constructed obstructions, some of which could be tall enough to be a hazard along your route of flight.

The only FAA/FAR requirements that pertain to charts are:
Title 14 CFR section 91.503[a] (Large and Turbojet powered aircraft)
Title 14 CFR section 135.83 (Air Carriers-Little Airplane)
Title 14 CFR section 121.549 (Air Carrier-Big Airplanes)
The FAA has rendered interpretations that have stated the foregoing. The subject of current charts was thoroughly covered in an article in the FAA's July/August 1997 issue of FAA Aviation News. That article was cleared through the FAA's Chief Counsel's office. In that article the FAA stated the following:
"You can carry old charts in your aircraft." "It is not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated charts in the aircraft."
"Not all pilots are required to carry a chart." "91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and multiengine airplanes to have charts." "Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements."
..."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.
..."the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.
"If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken."
If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation professional are telling pilots something other than the foregoing then you are incorrect.


Not my words - straight off the FAA website.

Regards

Ken

Excellent post, Ken.

The issue of charts has sparked many a debate. The general consensus is that in an experimental carrying something like EFlyBook qualifies as having "all necessary information available to complete a flight," but not everyone agrees. A 496 with a current database is completely legal for VFR flight, and with Terrain, XM Wx, and TFRs is probably better than any chart ever was at "keeping you out of trouble." For IFR flight, my recollection is that you are legal just carrying the airway charts plus approach plates for your destination and alternate - although many would say that is not a good idea.

Modern electronics are very reliable (if you don't spill your Coke on them). For those of us flying Experimentals, we have the freedom to take chances - and to live with the consequences.

 

[PilotKris]

Jeppeson ChartView provides full electronic CHARTS and APPROACH PLATES, displaying them on the unit.

Yes, Jeppeson ChartView does have full IFR electronic charts and approach plate for an EFB (Electronic Flight Bag) but there's been nothing mentioned about Honeywell's new unit (currently nothing more than "vaporware") having the full ChartView suite, only a terse mention of being able to display "Charts and Maps" (whatever that means).

I actually use ChartView and have found it lacking, even on a large screen tablet PC. I wouldn't consider a 5 3/4" screen large enough to display an approach plate and there's no-way it would be big enough for an enroute chart...

Who's not paying attention?

PilotKris

 

[PhantomPholly]

Jeppeson ChartView provides full electronic CHARTS and APPROACH PLATES, displaying them on the unit.

Yes, Jeppeson ChartView does have full IFR electronic charts and approach plate for an EFB (Electronic Flight Bag) but there's been nothing mentioned about Honeywell's new unit (currently nothing more than "vaporware") having the full ChartView suite, only a terse mention of being able to display "Charts and Maps" (whatever that means).

I actually use ChartView and have found it lacking, even on a large screen tablet PC. I wouldn't consider a 5 3/4" screen large enough to display an approach plate and there's no-way it would be big enough for an enroute chart...

Who's not paying attention?

PilotKris

From the link. Bold is mine:

The KSN 770 showcases a full VGA high resolution screen with a larger display area than on previous models. It offers an excellent view of the latest Jeppesen electronic charts and maps, complete with an own-aircraft position overlay. Based on the graphical user interface found on advanced business jets, their GUI enables graphical flight planning with a cursor control device 'so simple to use, flight planning and enroute navigation have never been easier.'

Sounds just like ChartView, and it seems unlikely that they (Honeywell) would miss this opportunity to leapfrog the competition when they are so late coming to the game.

But, you are free to be pessimistic and assume that it is just a marketing tease. People actually considering a purchase should, of course, verify the actual features of the product under consideration.

 

[Ken_Kopp]

Yes I know this debate is never ending...

From my previous post reading off the FAA website it says there are no regulations requiring charts. It doesn't specify VFR or IFR it just says no regs requiring charts.

I agree this wouldn't be prudent and I always carry charts even though I have more electronic goodies than I know what to do with - I have had too many "DLL file not found" issues to make it worth it.

So to me this is just another academic debate about what some people confuse as "mandatory" vice just plain smart.

OUT

 

[PilotKris]

Sounds just like ChartView, and it seems unlikely that they (Honeywell) would miss this opportunity to leapfrog the competition when they are so late coming to the game.

But, you are free to be pessimistic and assume that it is just a marketing tease.  People actually considering a purchase should, of course, verify the actual features of the product under consideration.

I'd be careful not to read too much into press releases.

Of course it's a tease. If it had ChartView, they wouldn't miss the opportunity to point that out. Besides, the screen is way too small to function as a EFB.

I'm not pessimist, I'm a realist.

PilotKris

BTW, if you watched the video on the link provided that touted all the capabilites, you'd see that there was no mention of any sort of "ChartView" capabilty and no mention what-so-ever of flight planning using victor (or J-route) airways. So much for wishful thinking...

 

[PhantomPholly]

Jeppeson ChartView provides full electronic CHARTS and APPROACH PLATES, displaying them on the unit.

Yes, Jeppeson ChartView does have full IFR electronic charts and approach plate for an EFB (Electronic Flight Bag) but there's been nothing mentioned about Honeywell's new unit (currently nothing more than "vaporware") having the full ChartView suite, only a terse mention of being able to display "Charts and Maps" (whatever that means).

I actually use ChartView and have found it lacking, even on a large screen tablet PC. I wouldn't consider a 5 3/4" screen large enough to display an approach plate and there's no-way it would be big enough for an enroute chart...

Who's not paying attention?

PilotKris

Can't help it if your old eyes are going bad - small screen is fine for me.

That would by you, not paying attention!

 

[PilotKris]

Can't help it if your old eyes are going bad - small screen is fine for me.

That would by you, not paying attention!

Your eyes are good enough to see the non-existent approach plates and enroute charts?...

What have you been smoking?