simple nav problem

[Axel]

Maybe I missed something, but I could not find the answer to some simple nav problems in the Dynon doc, so I would appreciate if Dynon or one of the forum experts could help, giving a step-by-step-procedure.

How do I manage the following simple situation with Skyview:

"fly outbound a station on radial xxx and thereafter inbound intercepting radial yyy"

Since there is no OBS to dial (and no flight plan anyway) the HSI is of no use, or is it ?

Please be patient with a Dynon newcomer.

 

[dlloyd]

The most simple would be to say "Unable, could you give me a heading."
You could set up direct to the VOR involved and bearing 1 for Skyview, then watch the needle to fly the appropriate radial. Once going in the proper direction, set the next VOR involved to intercept that radial. No, no easy way to do this.
Why would ATC ask you to do this VFR?

 

[dynonsupport]

As mentioned, the appropriate response is that you are unable as your aircraft is not equipped with dual VOR radios. which is required to follow that command.

The feature you are asking for is known as "Virtual VOR" or "pseudo VOR". This allows the GPS to emulate a VOR, and allows the user to define a radial to fly from any point (real VOR or not). This is a pretty advanced feature for a GPS, as the main point of a GPS is to fly flight plans and direct-tos. Generally GPS is considered superior to VORs since it allows you to go directly where you want to go, not just via VORs. There are GPS units that support Virtual VOR, but they tend to be IFR certified GPS units that cost $10,000+. So the lack of this is not because you are a "Dynon newcomer" - this is not a feature you will find in a standard aviation GPS, made by Dynon or Garmin.

The Virtual VOR feature is on SkyView's wish list, and we'll do it at some point. It probably won't support what you want though, since you want it to emulate *two* VORs at the same time. I don't know of any GPS that can do that.

In the end, SkyView's GPS is not designed as a replacement for a VOR receiver. Part of this comes from rules and regulations. A GPS emulated VOR is not the same as a real VOR, so you'd need to look and see if it would even be legal in your country to use the virtual VOR to fly an ATC commanded radial.

Remember that a GPS has waypoints- in the USA they would be able to tell you "fly direct PUDDY then direct PAE". This would put you on the same radials, but using GPS methods instead of VORs.

It appears in general that your flying is very much focused on VOR navigation, not GPS. If Panama really does use VOR navigation as the primary means, investing in two VOR receivers would probably make flying a lot easier for you.

 

[preid]

The Virtual VOR feature is on SkyView's wish list, and we'll do it at some point

Good to hear it has not been removed from being added in the future. It's a great feature, with excellent benefits for sure.

 

[Axel]

In the end, SkyView's GPS is not designed as a replacement for a VOR receiver. Part of this comes from rules and regulations.  A GPS emulated VOR is not the same as a real VOR, so you'd need to look and see if it would even be legal in your country to use the virtual VOR to fly an ATC commanded radial.

Thank you for your clear response and the comment of dlloyd, I already doubted my faculty to understand the Skyview paradigm.
I think the point is closed, just let me add 2 clarifications:

1) I cannot see why a GPS emulated VOR should not exactly behave like a real one (apart from variation/declination). So please add me to the long list of those wishing what you call "virtual VOR".

2) The legal issue is no argument at all, since
a) this discussion is about technology, not regulations in different countries,
b) my intentions were training IFR procedures (holdings, missed approaches, etc.) with my new Skyview airplane, in VMC and on an ATC accepted VFR flight plan.
I ignore if this is possible in the US, but that's not the point here.

 

[paul330]

Axel.  You seemed obsessed (in this and other threads) with trying to make the GPS part of Skyview emulate VORs.  Sure, you can display VOR info and shortly there should be an upgrade to display tracks etc from your IFR GPS but it is designed as a point-to-point GPS-driven system - as are all modern glass cockpits.  I fly B747s and have flown the big Airbuses.  In neither is there a mode in the AP/FD system that tracks VORs.  You fly the GPS track to the beacon and display the needle (if you wish) but it doesn't physically track the VOR radial.

If you really want to track VOR radials, then may I humbly suggest that you fit some VORs and disable the moving map and GPS? 

 

[Axel]

You seemed obsessed (in this and other threads) with trying to make the GPS part of Skyview emulate VORs. 

It's even worse than that, Paul.
I confess - only if you promise not to tell anybody on this forum - that initially I was even expecting a 3° glide indication included in the HSI. Nothing simpler for a GPS than a tangent calculation based on the current distance.

Now I am really ashamed of having had such preposterous expectations ...

...  is designed as a point-to-point GPS-driven system

ok Paul, but most IFR charts - perhaps not in the US - refer to radials/bearings at some point or other.
With all due respect to an airbus pilot: When executing a missed approach, for example, you have no time to set waypoints or FPs and more often than not an outbound radial is given as first missed approach step.

But by now I know the answer I will be given:
Stay away from anything that smells like IFR procedures: Skyview is a VFR device, unless you connect a bunch of certified HSIs/RBIs/VORs.

 

[Dynon]

Overall, our philosophy has been to create a system that has killer features for both IFR and VFR aircraft while tailoring exact features to the way that our products are most likely to be installed with other products. The way this roughly always breaks down in the world is:

VFR pilot: Doesn't care about VORs anymore, doesn't even have a NAV radio installed, and doesn't see any value in an IFR-capable GPS. For navigation, SkyView focuses on supporting these pilots well by having a robust, ever-evolving internal mapping and navigation engine. It tends to not emulate the features and services that an actual NAV radio or IFR navigator can provide.

IFR pilot: Has SkyView plus either a NAV radio (or two, in some cases), and in many cases, an IFR GPS or GPS/NAV or GPS/NAV/COM. For these pilots, we focus on having SkyView do the best things it possibly can to complement the features of the equipment that they'll probably have on board for IFR. So on SkyView's side, this includes things like dual data bus redundancy for the various SkyView modules, with alerting when something goes wrong - say when a wire breaks - without compromising capability; support for multiple ADAHRS, with annunciation and problem-solving comparison tools when your flight instruments (ADAHRS) don't agree with one another; reversionary mode for multi-display systems so that your workload doesn't drastically increase when you're left with only one display in-flight; purpose-built Li-ion backup batteries that are designed to save you when your electrical system fails you, etc etc. Almost none of these features that we think are core to SkyView's IFR capabilities are offered by anyone else.

So we think we serve the IFR community rather well. You're absolutely right the SkyView is not really designed to provide IFR-like navigation capabilities, by itself, for aircraft that aren't equipped with the equipment you'd need to fly IFR. Maybe there's something to those scenarios and we should think harder about capabilities in aircraft that aren't actually equipped for IFR, but franky, I'm not seeing the value for most people. And there's complexity there, especially as you create capabilities that look an awful lot like the "real" capabilities (like virtualized approaches to any point), but that could fairly easily be misunderstood by pilots that don't have a nuanced view of the differences. We try really hard to not introduce this sort of confusion into the product.

So while I'm sorry that SkyView isn't everything you wish it would be today, we do really think that we bring the capabilities that most pilots are after, and we're proud of that. SkyView is always evolving, too, and so does our thinking. Take a look at some of our press releases from just a year or two ago to see how far SkyView has come in just that amount of time. We'll keep trying to win you over

Happy New Year!

Michael Schofield
Marketing Manger
Dynon Avionics

 

[preid]

I have nothing wrong with Axel's wish list, heck I want the Virtual VOR, but not for the same reason but rather for navigating easier around mountains without needing to find a waypoint (that may be out of the way)
Michael nailed it, Dynon stepped up to make the VP-200 work initially and has taken steps to allow other 3rd party hardware compatible, even expanding the capabilities with a Mode S and com radio. I still think it is the best experimental system out there. Just need a simplified AP HDG option re-added 
I do need to say that I flew a x-country yesterday with a UPS captain, he flew, I set up the flight plan. He  navigated to VOR's and finally did a  RNAV approach (in VFR conditions) seems the big guys dont know how to fly visually  ;D, with that said, I do not have a certified WAAS GPS yet we technically flew as if the plane was equipped for IFR.
My point is, I too have flown into my airport on a late afternoon MVFR day (which is rwy 24 directly into the sun) and while many could not see the airport I flew the RNAV (which I set up the points as a FPL) and made the landing every time.
So Axel, I have no problem with your wishes, I support you on this, the Skyview is very capable of doing most everything except approaches in actual IFR conditions. If you want that capability, than legally you need the certified GPS, but otherwise Dynon may provide the huge perk of a virtual VOR in the future and you can manually do what you want, but keep in mind it is not certified and should not be expected to be unless you meet the requirements of the aeronautical group for IFR.

 

[trevpond]

So Axel, I have no problem with your wishes, I support you on this, the Skyview is very capable of doing most everything except approaches in actual IFR conditions. If you want that capability, than legally you need the certified GPS, but otherwise Dynon may provide the huge perk of a virtual VOR in the future and you can manually do what you want, but keep in mind it is not certified and should not be expected to be unless you meet the requirements of the aeronautical group for IFR.

reidvaitor, I absolutely agree with the above.

Axel I hope you are able to maximises your use of all the facilities available to you with your Skyview system and that you enjoy using it.

Happy New Year to you both.

best regards


Trev ;D

 

[paul330]

Skyview is a VFR device, unless you connect a bunch of certified HSIs/RBIs/VORs.

Now you've got it.........

As has been explained ad nauseum, Skyview is not certified as the primary means of navigation for IFR.  It will display the info from such devices (or will do shortly for GPS) but you cannot use a Skyview and its GPS puck for IFR approaches or navigation by emulating VORs or generating 3deg slopes to a runway.  END OF STORY......