429/232 Steering labels from heading bug

[flyvans.com]

To chime into the discussion here, this issue is also the main reason which is holding us off from Dynon products (for the moment)...
We're building an RV-7A and decided early on in the build, that we're going to install a Trutrak Digiflight II VSGV... So servos were ordered and installed and we've already received our navhead in a second step as well, brought it back from OSH.
Also at OSH, i was very impressed by Dynon's lineup (touch and feel, value, features) and future plans (moving map) except for autopilot integration... And this is a "nogo" item for us.
We have several reasons to not even consider a newbuild Dynon autopilot (taking the already ordered TT out of the equation). First, although you might achieve differently, all "proprietary" autopilot manufacturers in recent history have struggled heavily / ran into problems anywhere from the mechanical servos to the software side of things, with some safety critical issues... BMA and Garmin G1000 A/P integration come to mind. For a flight control system, this is not an option. Also having the autopilot standalone, will give a backup ALT/HDG hold that will still function even if one has to troubleshoot other avionics problems, e.g. losing attitude info and such.
Since the Trutrak (and Trio) are both great value for the money (compared to certified systems) and have a huge customer base and great track record, i do not understand why Dynon is so self-focussed what the autopilot is concerned, thereby limiting it's potential market!
Yes there might be physical and software issues, but hey, it can be done as GRT has proven. We're still a year or more from the major avionics purchases, until then nothing is said and done. Competition is good for us customers
Lateral and vertical autopilot control by the EFIS (Bugs and Mode Annunciator), preferably with an approach mode for LOC/GS driven by the EFIS is in our view the only main feature lacking with the current Dynon offerings. Why not an HS36 or so doing exactly that? some extra buttons and mode annunciation... Routing either GPSS from the GNS430 through or taking over by the EFIS. We would pay another 600$ and install an extra box, no problem. Still cheaper than a lot of competitors...
Planning on a GNS430 for flight plan/nav/ils, transponder will be a GTX328 European mode-s.

kind regards,
bernie daenzer
www.flyvans.com

 

[RYKG3]

Bermie,

I'm affraid we're all flogging a dead horse here. Dynon have finally come clean on the real reason that they won't do anything that will assist you to interface to a 3rd party autopilot - they intend producing one of their own. The nonsense about perceived difficulties, etc., etc., was, of course, just a smoke screen.

To quote (from Dynon's own recent posting):

Autopilot: We're working on it. We don't have a date on it yet. Because we'll have our own at some point, we're not likely to support interfacing with other companies' autopilots or servos.

So, when (if) their autopilot appears "at some point" we'll all flock to buy it (and the rest of their suite), won't we? Because we Experimental owners just love the notion of locking our avionics future into one company, and thereby giving them a license to hold us to ransom at will, don't we?

I guess some people just don't get it.

 

[dynonsupport]

So, when (if) their autopilot appears "at some point" we'll all flock to buy it (and the rest of their suite), won't we? Because we Experimental owners just love the notion of locking our avionics future into one company, and thereby giving them a license to hold us to ransom at will, don't we?

We hope that we don't come across as wanting to hold you or your panel ransom to one way of doing things. We try our best to provide you many options: both within our product line and with interoperability with a wide range of products that have capabilities that we don't. However, when we're working on our own autopilot, it's hard to justify the resources needed to implement, test, and support operation with other companies' autopilots.

 

[flyvans.com]

Although this might be your valid business decision, i think you are very much on the wrong path...
Time will tell, market will vote...
Usually though, instead of reinventing the wheel, better put the effort into new features, "unique selling propositions" etc... An autopilot that can do the same thing as every other autopilot is certainly not one of them... Rather a pretty big development risk. But i understand, it's probably more fun to do than some "boring" software for the engineers ;-)
Well, really looks like we're beating a dead horse...

regards,
bernie

www.flyvans.com

 

[dynonsupport]

But wouldn't you like an autopilot that does more than the competition, and comes in at the right price?

One last thought - we are definitely financially and growth motivated here as well. Our goal is to be able to offer as much of your panel as possible, and that means making more products, next versions of our current products, and so on. We've been fortunate in that we have a fairly large market share on the EFIS side of things, and we think the way to boost that market share AND grow is to produce a wide variety of products that play together really well.

Developing an autopilot is a natural fit for us for one other reason - we already have expertise in-house. A sister company of ours - http://www.daraaviation.com/ - developed an autopilot for its own UAV. Though there are some pretty big differences between a UAV and a "real" airplane, there is work there that we've been able to use as a springboard.

 

[khorton]

We're building an RV-7A and decided early on in the build, that we're going to install a Trutrak Digiflight II VSGV... So servos were ordered and installed and we've already received our navhead in a second step as well, brought it back from OSH.
Also at OSH, i was very impressed by Dynon's lineup (touch and feel, value, features) and future plans (moving map) except for autopilot integration... And this is a "nogo" item for us.

Bernie - what kind of inputs does the Trutrak autopilot require?  Does it accept aviation standard ARINC 429 inputs, or do they require some sort of proprietary input?  If they accept ARINC 429, which labels do you need that Dynon does not support?  

If the problem is that Dynon outputs aviation standard ARINC 429, and that Trutrak requires some proprietary input, why should it be up to Dynon to bridge the gap?  Wouldn't you expect the company that had chosen a proprietary input to be the one that needed to step in line with the rest of the industry?

 

[MavSmith]

Kevin,

Tru-Trak S-Tec and others use the label 121(roll steering) for integration with GPS navigators. This is the obvious label to use for integration with the heading system of an EFIS. Dynon have indicated they won't be producing label 121 citing development cost and other priorities.

There is some feeling around that the decision not to produce label 121 has been in some part motivated by Dynon wanting to restrict integtarion with other auto pilots pending the release on their own.  This seems likely and is disappointing.


Bruce.

 

[khorton]

Kevin,

Tru-Trak S-Tec and others use the label 121(roll steering) for integration with GPS navigators. This is the obvious label to use for integration with the heading system of an EFIS. Dynon have indicated they won't be producing label 121 citing development cost and other priorities.

Hmm. Roll steering is a bank angle command, and it normally comes from a Flight Management System, or a GPS system, in my experience. Dynon doesn't manufacture either of those.

I agree that it would be possible to take the actual heading, selected heading and TAS and determine a roll steering command. Dynon could do that, or TruTrak could take the info that Dynon outputs and calculate a roll steering command, or a third party could do it. There might be a market opportunity here, now we will see who (if anyone) is interested in filling it.

Do other EFIS manufacturers output a roll steering command that TruTrak will accept? If so, maybe you should simply buy one of those, rather than waiting for Dynon to create this feature.

 

[RYKG3]

Yep, that's what I've decided to do. The AF-3500EE from Advanced Flight Systems is a quality item that does everything that I want it to. Sure, it costs more, but you only gets what you pays for and, in that regard, the AFS unit is head and shoulders - and I get the A/P of MY choosing! Ah, I can hear the Dynon stock price plummetting....