ADSB - GPS

flybuddy

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May 12, 2007
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fort myers, florida
Freeflight has shown that it's possible to make a low cost internal certified WAAS GPS that meets 2020 ADSB mandate. Has Dynon rethought its position on this to either try and get the SV250GPS certified or perhaps make another GPS module that is certified. If the answer is no, will the Freeflight system work with the SV261 xpndr and 470 adsb module OR can you recommend something that won't break the bank for 2020 compliance.
 

lolachampcar

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Jul 17, 2011
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I've been looking at ADSB over the last few days and there is a big difference between certified and experimental.  Given this is a Dynon forum, I'll assume experimental.

Use Dynon's puck for now and give them time to allow for a TSO'd GPS source.  I'm sure they will have provisions for it by the time the mandate comes around and Freeflight and others will have cheaper TSO'd stand alone GPS modules (heck, there are only two that I know of today so you know more are coming).

From a bigger picture view, I've heard that there are simply not enough avionics shop hours between now and 2020 to convert the whole GA fleet.  Not only that, but certified aircraft require an STC or field approval based on an existing STC.  A Trig Mode S-ES (of the type Dynon uses in Skyview) together with the FF 1201 TSO'd GPS installed with TSO'd antennas by an avionics shop will run well north of $8K.  Once the GA fleet becomes aware of this, the ground swell of discontent will have our representative's phones ringing off the hook and there goes your mandate.  It will be pushed at a minimum or even dumped for some aircraft.

It is a crying shame that poor leadership will likely hobble an absolutely fantastic GOVERNMENT PROGRAM.  ADSB works and works well as anyone currently flying behind Skyview with ADSB will tell you.  Experimental is WAY out in front of certified on this key safety issue.
 

jeffa

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Mar 22, 2010
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Lewisville, TX
The Freeflight 1201 works perfectly with the Dynon (Trig) transponder....I've been flying with it for 120+ hours.
 

dynonsupport

Dynon Technical Support
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Mar 23, 2005
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You aren't paying for WAAS. The SkyView GPS is WAAS. You are paying for certification, which is "proof" that it is accurate and reliable enough for ATC to use for separation. It has nothing to do with the real world performance of a device vs. another.
 

flybuddy

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May 12, 2007
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fort myers, florida
That's exactly the point..we have to pay for a whole system when we simply need a certified GPS module. The FAA needs to streamline the cert process. Years ago with Prolific VOR use position errors could be ok when miles off. Modern GPS units are down to a few feet. STILL, we realize the huge cost associated with certification and recognize it would probably triple the cost of a GPS module BUT this would still be , by far, the easiest and cheapest method without having to tie in some other system.
 

lolachampcar

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Jul 17, 2011
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ok, I tried to hold off on posting this as it is probably not of general interest but this issue has me concerned.  ADSB is a good idea but I fear bad management is hurting it and may significantly delay it.


July 13, 2014

Michael P. Huerta
Administrator
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue, S. W.
Washington, DC 20591

Administrator Huerta,

I am writing today to share my observations on ADS-B, arguably the single most transformative task you and your successors have undertaken.  My vantage point is that of a GA pilot who routinely flies both certified and experimental aircraft and one that values safety.

One of the experimental aircraft I fly is equipped with ADS-B In and Out.  The out function is accomplished using a TSO’d Mode S-ES transponder coupled with a non-certified GPS and pressure altitude source.  Of course, this pressure altitude source is tested per FAR requirements every twenty four months.  The increase in situational awareness that comes from a complete and accurate traffic picture is phenomenal and the FAA should be commended for conceiving of and implementing the ADS-B concept.  If I were to guess, I would think a survey of the average GA pilot would show that over 50% of the traffic targets available on a three mile ring are never seen.  In short, the availability of traffic in GA aircraft is a transformative lifesaving concept; if it is implemented.

I’ve just recently purchased a certified motor glider and have begun to examine my options for ADS-B In and Out.  I am no expert on the technology and even less so on the minutia of the regulations surrounding the 2020 mandate or its implementation.  Given this, I’ll speak in generalized terms and may, in some instances, completely miss on my facts.  Even with this, I think the overall reason for this note will be clear.

As I understand my options today, I can install ADS-B out equipment if there is a STC for the installation or, per the October 10, 2012 guidance prepared by Alejandro Rodreguez and Chris Parfitt, I can seek field approval for TSO’d equipment which has an STC for another application provided I follow the exact wiring, functional testing and documentation processes depicted in that STC.  In my case, I am working with a Motor Glider where there are no STC or STCs for similar aircraft.

The interesting part about the STC requirement for an ADS-B Out system is that I can install a TSO’d Mode S transponder and a TSO’d GPS position source based solely on a 337 (or a generalized STC like those provided by Garmin for their radio/gps nav/com units) provided all the manufacturer’s requirements are adhered to.  It seems only when I connect the certified position information from the GPS source up to the transponder that an STC is required.  I understand that these systems are new and need to be held to a higher standard but I believe there will be some unintended consequences of these decisions and that these consequences could be avoided without sacrificing ADSB integrity or functional verification.

Someone mentioned to me that, even if we start today and every GA owner was willing to pay the price, there are not enough avionic shop hours between now and 2020 to bring the fleet into compliance by 2020.  I’m not sure if that is accurate but it does point to a fundamental flaw in the mandate concept.  The current structure and implementation costs/complexity surrounding the mandate will, at a minimum, delay its implementation and possibly kill the mandate altogether.  Once the whole GA fleet starts to feel the pain, you will see a ground swell revolt against a government mandate that will cost most GA owners $5,000 in hardware and likely several thousand dollars in installation costs.  These owners will contact their representatives and all momentum will be lost.

It is 2014 and what I have described above is foreseeable and preventable.  I believe it is in the public’s interest that all aircraft be equipped with ADS-B Out and that cost effective system options are available for the GA community to access ADS-B In in certified aircraft.  It is absolutely silly that experimental aircraft are allowed to trump certified aircraft in this vital area of safety.  Accomplishing GA moving to ADSB will require significant work on both equipment and regulatory compliance costs.  This work will take strong leadership as I would think the entrenched interests are very strong.  I can not imagine delegating this responsibility will do anything but provide a way to duck the issue and leave it for someone else’s watch.

Costs for, and impediments to, implementation in GA can be traced to two general areas, equipment and administrative.  I’ve lumped installation in with administrative as compliance requirements drive a majority of the installation costs.

TSO’d transponder costs are well known.  They are higher than non-TSO’d units of the exact same construction because of the compliance costs of producing TSO’d hardware and the associated liability for equipment installed in certified aircraft.  The same can easily be said for TSO’d GPS sources.  There is little difference between a $50 12 channel WAAS receiver puck off Amazon and a certified GPS source from a manufacturing cost standpoint and yet the TSO’d unit costs $2,500 plus the cost of a TSO’d antenna.  These added costs do improve quality, reliability and traceability but at a price that will likely fuel the postponement or demise of implementing ADSB in GA.

From a hardware standpoint, I would think it would be in the best interest of the GA community and the general population if the FAA were to generate a class of equipment that had streamlined approval and a measure of liability protection (and any other steps that would reasonably reduce cost).  This device class would be an integrated Mode S-ES transponder, pressure altitude encoder, acceptable GPS source and ADS-B In receiver.  This device could easily be a sub $2,000 device provided the FAA worked in partnership with manufacturers to qualify the equipment.  In this instance, I would even suggest a no cost certification facility staffed and funded by the FAA.

On the administrative side, these devices need to be installed under a 337.  The need for an STC and, in most cases, a field approval will literally stop the implementation dead in its tracks.  The FAA alone can not handle the burden of reviewing and issuing field approvals for all the necessary aircraft let alone STCs for every type certificate currently operating in the US.  Further, the cost of compliance on the hardware manufacturer’s and installer’s sides are equally damming.  If done correctly, there is absolutely no reason why the above described equipment installation could not be handled as simply as a currently replacing a Mode C transponder with a Mode S transponder.

Accomplishing ADSB implementation is going to require significant leadership.  Relying on a mandate alone without addressing the fundamental methodology and costs by which GA can comply will fail.  Regretfully, it is getting progressively harder to truly manage such projects and prevail over entrenched interests and yet that is exactly the type of leadership this project requires.  That task falls on your shoulders thus the reason for this note.

Good Luck,


Bill Hart
 

jeffa

New Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
74
Location
Lewisville, TX
Thx, it's still a shame to have to spend over 3k just for Waas.

For anyone who might be interested in the FreeFlight 1201 system, Southeast Aerospace is selling the GPS (PN 84100-03-0310) and antenna (PN 81194) combo for $2400.

I have no affiliation with Southeast Aerospace....just dealt with them several times in my day job....excellent service.
 
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