Advice for Dynon

[Corefile]

ok ok let’s ratchet this down on both sides and not turn this into a Facebook type of spat.
Dynon has barely even added support for their own servos on the certified side - only a few aircraft - they have a long way to go to even support their own servos - before they can even think about supporting some other vendors servo or AP. I myself have just ordered the Dynon system for my Cessna 180 - and I’m making a leap of faith they come out with the AP for the 180 in a timely manner - they tell me they will.
Dynon responded to your suggestion - they heard you, they hear from a lot of us. But they have a product plan - we all have our ideas - but worst thing they could do is move engineering resources around from one idea to another. For instance, I wish they could integrate with other ADS-B solutions... like ability to show traffic and weather form my GTX-345... but they don’t - I gave them an ear full about that.... every vendors has its pros and cons. Anywho..

Let’s all just chill..

 

[sunfish]

I suspect that both points of view regarding costs are correct. I had a brief look at some certified autopilot servo installation images and my engineering viewpoint from those is that the job of fitting Dynon servos to a certified aircraft is not trivial.

If there is no installation kit available from Dynon for his Mooney, then Austinswill’s installation is going to require some original aircraft engineering design - and that does not come cheap, as well as the fabrication of the mountings and sourcing the hardware. So I guess that is where the $10,000 AP figure comes from. Of course once that installation has been done once and tested, it should be able to be applied to similar aircraft at much reduced cost.

The guys pointing out the relatively cheap cost of the Dynon servos are also right......But you then need that installation kit and instructions. It was relatively easy for me building experimental - Zenith just posted some images of their factory install and it was easy to build the mounts from those images. I get a fantastic autopilot for the price of the servos!

From Dynon point of view, I would expect designing and building an “adapter box” to interpret Skyview servo commands into King and S-tec servos, etc. Isn’t as simple as it sounds and the box has then got to be tested and certified as well with a wide variety of servos. Certifying stuff isn’t cheap. To me, that doesn’t make commercial sense as well as being a simply massive technical support headache - and all it does is prevent the sale of more Dynon servos. I don’t blame them for avoiding this task.

 

[DBRV10]

I dont need you to educate me... I have spent a LOT of time researching this as it applies to ME and my aircraft. You dont know anything about me or my aircraft so how is it that you know what would be best for my situation? Must be nice to be omniscient.

Degrade the product? How would producing a unit to make the legacy AP's and skyview talk to one another degrade the product? At the worst the AP wouldn't fly as precise as a digital one, but I dont think anyone would expect that. They would however enjoy getting started with Dynon for 15K+ less with the option to upgrade in the future.... Do you understand what a BARRIER TO ENTRY is ?

As far as going the other route....

EDM900 - 9k installed
G5 for ADI - 3k installed
GFC500 AP - 14k installed.

So, that's 26k installed.. AND I can do the EDM900 now, get a clean panel and have good (probably better than Dynon) engine monitoring. I can fly my existing AP and ADI for probably a few years and then spring for the garmin AP and ADI.

A single screen Dynon package with AP is 25.5k, 2 screen 30.5k... BEFORE installation, which will probably run around 10-15k. So... how is it that going garmin is MORE expensive again? Maybe YOU need the education.

Geez someone got out the wrong side of the bed.

I need educating all right, I need to know how I can sell a USD$21K package to my clients for $30K. Because that is some clever trick.

By the way for the $21K below that has a Yaw Damper included. It could have a GPS 2020 if not being mated to a TSO146 GPS, and it could have ADSB in and still be less than $22K. And be far more feature rich than a G5 and an EDM. Talk about a Prius vs a Tundra for going off road......

But what the hell would I know. Only a newbie at this Dynon stuff since 2004.

I suggest you actually buy Garmin, I really do.

 

[Austinswill]

Geez someone got out the wrong side of the bed.

I need educating all right, I need to know how I can sell a USD$21K package to my clients for $30K. Because that is some clever trick.

By the way for the $21K below that has a Yaw Damper included. It could have a GPS 2020 if not being mated to a TSO146 GPS, and it could have ADSB in and still be less than $22K. And be far more feature rich than a G5 and an EDM. Talk about a Prius vs a Tundra for going off road......

But what the hell would I know. Only a newbie at this Dynon stuff since 2004.

I suggest you actually buy Garmin, I really do.

View attachment 3791

Hrm... See attached, plus an estimated 8-10k install price... that's 38-40k according to math 33-35k if only 1 screen. But hey, Why dont you give me your phone number and I will order through you, since I am wasting my time with the worksheet DYNON provides on their website.


PS: Imagine being so disgusted with someone else's choices / opinion that you dont even want them to get the same thing as you because that would somehow degrade your own lot. Sad.

 

[RVDan]

Your initial suggestion to Dynon on the AP interface, probably has merit. Your price comparison to an EDM path is totally apples to oranges. I tried to offer you a possible step solution, but you chose to focus on the argument. I think the desire to see you go elsewhere is a showing of pity for the forum readers and whoever you buy from.

 

[Austinswill]

Your initial suggestion to Dynon on the AP interface, probably has merit. Your price comparison to an EDM path is totally apples to oranges. I tried to offer you a possible step solution, but you chose to focus on the argument. I think the desire to see you go elsewhere is a showing of pity for the forum readers and whoever you buy from.

Of course it is apples to oranges, I never suggested otherwise. I appreciated your suggestion, I was simply uncertain if it was legal to do such a hybrid installation, I have been told elsewhere it is not (possibly incorrectly). Sorry if you thought i was arguing with you, that was not my intention as you were about the only helpful person to participate in this thread. I will be doing some more research on the feasibility of doing such an installation.

The people I was arguing with are acting like fanboys, totally disgusted at the fact that I dare question the superiority of Dynon or its suitability/viability for my situation. I am obviously not one to sit and let people run over me with incorrect information or adhoms, so I have no pity for those that willingly chose to participate in the thread and deliver such. Funny how they have been quiet after I provided Installation quotes and screenshots showing that my price research was pretty spot on.

 

[swatson999]

This was originally about one thing...Dynon support for legacy AP servos, versus having to buy/install new Dynon servos. All the other costs and spreadsheet data is irrelevant, at least to this discussion.

You are being quoted 10K or something like that to have new servos installed by the A&P. The cost of the servos *themselves* is only around 1700. So your beef really is with the cost of modifying a certificated aircraft, not with anyone here. We're simply pointing out that your suggestions to Dynon (to add support to their products for AP servos they neither make nor sell, while diverting engineering, sales and tech support resources to such an endeavour) probably doesn't make sense for them. If you can't accept the lack of Dynon support for older electronics by other companies, then it seems you have a couple of choices: buy everything else from Dynon and go without the AP, buy everything from someone else who does support the servos you have, or some hybrid combination such as was mentioned before.

Aviation is not a cheap hobby, and from your spreadsheets, you're doing a full-up, complete panel overhaul. That's not going to be cheap on your non-EAB aircraft, no matter who you go with. Perhaps you should just factor in the cost of the installation of the new servos, suck it up and live with the impacts of owning a certificated plane.

 

[kellym]

After seeing SKyview HDX I got all googly eyed... especially at the price that is typically posted below it on various sites. However that fantasy is quickly dashed once you open the pricing worksheet. Typically the price first seen is around 4300.00. However after opening the worksheet and doing the bare minimum, that price nearly triples. This is quite off putting, at least to me.

The other advice I have for Dynon is to come up with a solution to integrate with legacy autopilots. Not doing so drastically drives up the cost of entry into Dynon infrastructure. The cost to purchase the AP and the installation of it drives cost of entry up probably around 10 -12k dollars. Admittedly, this is reasonable for an AP, but remember this is atop the 13k + install one would be spending to get the Sky view. Spending that much when one already has a functioning AP is foolish. If Dynon offered integration with lagacy AP's, it would not only GREATLY reduce the cost of entry into Dynon products for those with legacy AP's, but would also secure future Dynon AP upgrades as these old AP's fail.

I don't think Dynon realizes how competitive this would make them. There are tons of aircraft out there that have legacy AP's and would greatly benefit with skyview. ESPECIALLY since it has engine monitoring. An EDM 900 cost around $9000.00 to purchase and install. An ASPEN that works with legacy AP's is over 12k to purchase and install. Dynon Skyview is 13k + install and gives a better EFIS than ASPEN, incorporates engine monitoring and has a clear path to upgrades.

I am a prime candidate for Skyview... and I WANT it.... yet I cannot justify it. Instead I will be installing an EDM 900 and waiting out my current AP and when it fails going with a Garmin solution. Simply because I can do this in stages and end up with a nice cockpit. It wont be as nice as a Skyview package, but I can do it in stages.

If SKyview HDX would work with my KFC150, I would buy it today.

What you are missing is that the effort/money to support legacy autopilots would be completely wasted, as most are more than 20 years old, with components likely to fail within a few years. You are assuming the install for an autopilot will be similar to a legacy autopilot, which it is not.
Most likely, the roll servo would be in the belly, and the pitch servo in the tailc one. You wouldn't make the swketitch anytime other than annual when your interior is already out. Same for engine sensors. In many cases existing sensors can be connected to and reused. Or, if replacing sensors, the install is still a lot less than it would be for an aircraft that never had a monitoring system. Comparing what you have with Garmin components...you can't compare the G5, you need to be talking G3X. You also need to consider Garmin database costs, Garmin repair costs...all far above Dynon pricing. Your biggest problem with any EFIS and autopilot upgrade is the engine STC you have. No STC is going to bother with the Rocket/Missile STCs...too few, and they have significant issues with the aircraft flight control system, with different forces required, different trim requirements. Good luck...JMHO having knowledge of both Mooneys and Dynon equipment.