An update on Dynon Certified projects

Dynon

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To our customers,

We endeavor to be honest with our product schedules and aircraft autopilot expectations, and have updated the upcoming autopilot approvals to indicate when things change. But, we could have better set expectations, and better explained why dates have slipped and why airplane models have fallen off the list of expected approvals. For that we apologize, and we’re working to improve.

There are fundamentally two things that we’ve tried to give guidance on: airframe compatibility and availability timeframes. Both have had their own reasons for being too optimistic in the past. We’ll explain why our estimates haven’t been right, and how our approach is changing now and in the future.

On timelines

To arrive at an estimated ship date for an autopilot approval project, we generally take our internal schedules, seriously pad them, round forward to the next quarter/half/year as we estimate based on risk, and publish that as our best guess. A few things have conspired to make these too optimistic.

First, although COVID didn’t affect our own work drastically, it did substantially slow and shut the FAA’s operations for a while. Another factor here was the aircraft grounding issues experienced by our neighborhood airline manufacturer, which is serviced by the same Seattle certification office that handles our projects. As a result, the staffing and attention available to our projects has been less than we anticipated. We based our timelines on the results of our original 172 and Bonanza 35 programs, which moved fairly quickly, and that turned out to be the wrong way to calibrate the future. We are working with the FAA to address this going forward.

Next, there were a couple of projects that we expected to be able to handle with external resources and partners, which we later realized we’d need to bring inside Dynon to perform the deep design and engineering analysis required. This turned a few parallel projects into ones that had to be serialized, which impacted the schedules of all projects. This is also why we are currently unable to entertain offers to partner with external parties to try to speed up aircraft approvals. So far, we’ve found it counterproductive. The level of specialized expertise is too deep for most individuals and organizations that don’t have a lot of experience in this exact space.

On aircraft models

We’ve aimed to be as transparent as possible in terms of what aircraft we thought we would be gaining approval for with each effort. Our ideal scenario would let potential customers plan their whole installation knowing whether or not an approval was coming. We recognize that for many people, the autopilot is important in the solution, and so we want to help you understand which airplanes will have those capabilities as early as possible. For a while, this was the way we communicated our plans. But we overshot. We were naive in thinking that our initial analysis for a given model family represented where we’d end up. Along the way, we’ve found unexpected changes across aircraft sub-models/years as we’ve gotten into the deep engineering. We’ve also discovered differences across serial number ranges of single models that should be identical, but which turned out to have differences that matter for the autopilot install. We found we are dealing with legacy aircraft that were essentially handbuilt with variations from plane to plane. These findings have led us to reign in aircraft model expectations. With 20/20 hindsight, we should have been way more conservative up front. We will be in the future.

What the future looks like

We’ve learned a lot over the past couple of years, and things are looking better going forward. We expect our cadence to improve with less project shuffling, increased staffing, applying lessons learned, and leveraging the community as best we can. More on that below.

Know that if an airplane is on our website, it’s one we’re actively working on, we have a version of the airplane in-house being worked on. Going forward, we will make guesses on what related/similar models are likely to be included, because we’ve had some late dropouts as happened with the Bonanza series. We’ll publish known exclusions so that we don’t offer false hope when we know certain models or variants won’t make the approval. We want you to have that information early. Conversely, just because a model isn’t excluded, doesn’t mean it’s “in”. We’ve updated our language on the website to set these expectations better.

Whenever we know that a schedule has changed, we’ll update our website like we always have. We’re considering removing date-based guidance entirely since we’ve been so consistently wrong historically. At the same time, we want to provide the best guidance we have, even if it’s low confidence. We’re curious what you think we should do here?

We are also considering not publishing future aircraft models before they’re available. We’re curious what you - the community - think of that idea. On one hand, you won’t know whether or when your aircraft will have autopilot coming. On the other, if autopilot is important to you, it’s not REALLY available until it’s certified for your model. And we can’t be certain of which models we’ll gain approval for until pretty late in the process. Your thoughts?

Finally, know that ever since the Bonanza autopilot applicability narrowed, our team has been actively discouraging potential customers from buying in advance of actual autopilot availability if an autopilot is important to their project. We’ve strengthened the language on the website similarly. But we know that some of your panels predate that shift in expectations. Some Bonanza 33, 35 and other customers have bought and installed our products, expecting an autopilot that hasn’t yet been approved. We’re really sorry, and we are working to deliver on our original plans. What does that mean, specifically? We currently have a pretty full roster of airplanes, in hangars, being worked on, in various states (the ones on our website). We’re committed to all of these airplanes. As those finish up, we plan to come back to as many of the aircraft that we previously believed were in our certification projects, including as many of the the Bonanza 33 and 35 series as we can. As of this writing, we do not have the precise order completely mapped out, but we will update the community when we do. It is also possible that some aircraft that we’d previously thought we’d gain approval for will not ultimately gain it, since there may be some small populations of aircraft that are too different from the rest of the fleet of that model.

Help us understand your aircraft

Many of you have asked how you can help. Some have generously offered to loan us your aircraft, provide services, or otherwise partner with us. We appreciate all of your passion and offers. Some of those are impractical from a certification standpoint, but there is at least one meaningful way you can help. One of the “gotcha” areas is seemingly minor differences in airframes across model years that can greatly affect autopilot design and applicability for the whole family. Oftentimes, robust drawings and structural data for entire model lines are hard to obtain. Having a better look inside the “guts” of as many aircraft as possible would help a lot here. This will hopefully let us expand and verify the exact models that future autopilot approval projects will apply to.

So what do we need? Pictures of the inside of your fuselages, wings, and the other structures that autopilot servo installations live in. The best pictures would be those of existing autopilot installations. If you can include a ruler for scale, that would be helpful too. Finally, knowing the actual diameters of your aircraft’s control cables would make our engineers really happy. The best time to grab such pictures is probably during your annual or other significant work. If you’re game to help, the image uploader can be found here. Thank you in advance!
 

Dynon

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An additional note about a specific project: We'd previously estimated that the Bonanza A36 expansion would be done by Q2, which ends in 2 days. We won't make that, but are getting very close. This last part of the project involves a lot of interaction with the FAA, so it's hard for us to predict exactly dates since the schedule isn't entirely in our hands. Nevertheless, we've published this slip in the updated guidance here:

 

PYoder

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KOSU
I really appreciate this reply … I’m one of the A36 guys waiting (impatiently) for the AP. My whole panel is in and functioning perfectly.
You guys have such a good product, it‘s a shame the AP isn’t available because your sales would soar!
Our often repeated questions are - Is your FAA region THAT different from the one Garmin resides in? Or is it their sheer size that allows them to move faster? Is there any way to bring pressure on the FAA?
I personally feel for you - I’d hate to be in a business that depended on the government folks for my success.
(I’d gladly photograph my servo locations except that I totally removed my old AP when I installed my whole Dynon system. If ‘naked’ photos will help, let me know. E-1048 ‘77 A36)
 

JohnAJohnson

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Whenever we know that a schedule has changed, we’ll update our website like we always have. We’re considering removing date-based guidance entirely since we’ve been so consistently wrong historically. At the same time, we want to provide the best guidance we have, even if it’s low confidence. We’re curious what you think we should do here?

Even if it is low confidence, please continue to post a best guess, for reasons stated below.


We are also considering not publishing future aircraft models before they’re available. We’re curious what you - the community - think of that idea. On one hand, you won’t know whether or when your aircraft will have autopilot coming. On the other, if autopilot is important to you, it’s not REALLY available until it’s certified for your model. And we can’t be certain of which models we’ll gain approval for until pretty late in the process. Your thoughts?

Please publish future aircraft models on as long a timeline as possible. You should already have the fleet rank ordered for, I would think, at least the next three years. This would be a tremendous piece of planning information and the transparency would be most welcome. Example, if the 177 series isn't on your three year (or longer) plan, I'd know that if I wanted an autpilot, I'd need to consider a competitor's.

Thanks for the detailed update. It is appreciated.
 

dominikos

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Thank you for transparency and the update. I’m new to the airplane ownership (less than a year) so take my feedback with a grain of salt… But I will try to answer your question from my own perspective (customer) while trying to keep your interest (corporation) in mind.

For transparency, I’m a ‘78 M20J Mooney owner, 200 hours of VFR and quite close to finishing IFR, if all goes well will be done in August.
At this point, I don’t need to update my panel yet. I have functioning AP (Century IIB), with Garmin GNS 430W and FS 210. This setup is going to last me for a few years if needed. I’m new to flying, so I use/leverage Foreflight quite a lot and I’m comfortable with backup of a backup solution that are not certified like Sentry. Hope not to get flack for this. But I’m trying to show that I’m not in urgent need for upgrade today.
What I need and I think community needs is a) roadmap for your product development, b) transparency on the progress.
I can wait with my setup for another year or even two. I do know that your solution is well featured and priced. But I also see the impatience of the community of seeing drifting dates and broken promises. And being new to the plane ownership, I wonder what it takes for you to actually make money on the investment for low volume products. Here is how I would approach it:
- publish your 3-5 year roadmap - to help set expectation but also to gain turf. but once you have roadmap, stick to it. Demonstrate ability to execute and turn promises into deliverables. This will help your reputation. People might want to wait for you to deliver having confidence that you can deliver and stand by your promises. Think about those roadmaps as beach head and ability to turn away potential customers from the competition.
- be transparent on your progress - if it does not reveal your IP or make your vulnerable to competition. Don’t underestimate social media. Be transparent. One of the things I learned early in my IT career was ‘we are transparent to our customers, even if we need to acknowledge our mistakes’. That’s challenging approach but builds trust. If you had weekly, monthly or whatever regular updates, it would go long way. It would get your community engaged, help us to feel like a part of the process. There is a big difference between, “we get mooney done in Q1’22“ and “this week, we tested XYZ and we learned this… we submitted this form to FAA and we heard blah and we are on schedule”. Keeps us engaged. To give you comparison. I don’t use FB but I subscribed to garmin, BK, and your chanels. Garmin has multiple posts a day, BK, once a day. Dynon, once a month.

To summarize long post, engage us, even if only with updates. Set aggressive goals. Be transparent on progress. Make money by setting realistic and dependable estimates that allow you to capture market share. Otherwise, people will drift towards available now solutions.

Hope this helps. Will send picture when I get to open panels.
 
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Dynon

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Our often repeated questions are - Is your FAA region THAT different from the one Garmin resides in? Or is it their sheer size that allows them to move faster? Is there any way to bring pressure on the FAA?

(I’d gladly photograph my servo locations except that I totally removed my old AP when I installed my whole Dynon system. If ‘naked’ photos will help, let me know. E-1048 ‘77 A36)

Your first line of questions is complex, with no easy answers. "Everything matters" is probably a short but unsatisfying answer.

But yes, even interior structure pictures without AP servos installed would theoretically help, especially if you we had pictures of where the servos USED to be mounted and can get shots of those locations. That said, in your case, the A36 project really is in its final stages, so all of the heavy lifting on the engineering front is complete (not not quite as useful in this case).
 

Dynon

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Please publish future aircraft models on as long a timeline as possible. You should already have the fleet rank ordered for, I would think, at least the next three years. This would be a tremendous piece of planning information and the transparency would be most welcome. Example, if the 177 series isn't on your three year (or longer) plan, I'd know that if I wanted an autpilot, I'd need to consider a competitor's.

We used to published what we believed to be the next tiers of future aircraft as we believed them to be. As it turns out, for a whole bunch of reasons, some of those future plans changed, and we got less certain about the timing and ordering of future aircraft. Our rule for now is that we publish information about an aircraft model's AP expectations when we have a project fully committed to. The real commitment happens when we bring an aircraft in-house for R&D. That still yields a pretty deep lineup of aircraft (1-2 years worth). We'll keep thinking about the balance here. What we definitely DON'T want to do is to give people false hope when there is still substantial uncertainty.
 

JohnAJohnson

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We used to publish... ...What we definitely DON'T want to do is to give people false hope when there is still substantial uncertainty.
A Cardinal Flyers forum member called your competitor to inquire if the 177A was on their radar. He got this back: "I spoke to the guy that is making those decisions. He said the 177 and 177A will get certified. Best guess is 1.5-2 years. It is #10 on the list."

Your competitor is not giving his prospective customer false hope. To a person, while it is a "best guess" and stated as such, it is very much a critical piece of data for decision making. Please reconsider.
 

greentips

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Excellent approach to complex engineering/regulatory stew. As I am in the design process (nearly complete) for the panel in my C182, and it has a 300 antique a/p (doesn't fly as well as a well trimmed hand flying) with servos, I'll get you the pictures as soon as I can.
 

robby

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Appreciate the clarity here. I'll echo what others have said -- visibility into your roadmap and future intentions is valuable, even if it's too far out to make specific promises.
 

Dynon

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Nothing granular to share at this time. We're deep in the requisite back and forth with the FAA.
 

Bill Putney

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I've started to work this problem from the top down. The way the FAA certifies autopilots is tailor made for the electromechanical autopilots of the mid 20th century. Every time the FAA gets a certification request for new model or sub-model aircraft to approve, they seem to go back to square one in their certification procedure as if they'd never see the autopilot system before and don't understand anything about it. Modern microprocessor driven autopilots that are part of an integrated system need a completely different certification methodology.

The guidance that forces this on ACO engineers seriously needs to be looked at. And, it's not just me saying that. A 2016 paper written jointly by people from NASA, The US Air Force, The FAA and University of Tulsa explained;

"The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has been interested in alternate certification strategies for small aircraft systems for several years. The Agency recognizes that new technologies are available that could significantly increase safety. However, many of these technologies are not being implemented or certified due to several barriers. Some of these barriers include the certification burden of outdated regulations."

"Of primary importance is reducing the certification burden for systems which will improve overall aircraft safety, which is consistent with the core purpose of the certification process."

"The most frequent causes of fatal mishaps that afflict small aircraft are: loss of control (LOC), controlled flight into terrain (CFIT), and component failure involving the power plant. Of particular interest is LOC, which accounts for over 40% of the total fatal mishaps. In many instances, LOC statistics—as well as CFIT statistics - which are due to spatial disorientation or pilot distraction - could be significantly improved with the addition of even very simple autopilot systems..."


A look at NTSB statistics in certified and experimental aircraft will tell you that autopilots do not show up as a cause, except in the cases where they are installed and not used. Conversely, Loss Of Control accidents really do kill significant numbers of people. Odds players would tell you that reducing the administrative burdens to the installation of autopilots in more GA aircraft is a sure bet.

A change in guidance to recognize that autopilot systems certification should have two distinct certification tasks. This would greatly reduce the certification burden. Stage one, certify the autopilot system along with enough flight testing in a few aircraft types that there is some certainty that they can be safely applied across a broad range of types. Stage two, is approving data for the mechanical process of mounting servos to the airframes and safe attachments to flight controls. Along with this are some limitations detailed in the AFMS for each specific type. Most of the stage two detail has been previously worked out for most of the 600 types on Dynon's AML. There are lots of examples and they have been shown over time to be safe.

In my conversations and emails with people at the FAA it is clear to me that it is very hard for them to push guidance changes up the chain and are really captives of the guidance they have. Maybe that's as it should be, but it's what imparts so much inertia to the regulatory system. We are the lobsters boiling in the pot. If these accidents killed hundreds of people at a time like the 737 Max problems it would get instant attention from the top down and changes would be made in short order. Because we die in 2's and 3's the issue is easier to ignore.

For better or worse, I only have access to the top and the bottom of the chain. I've worked with the FSDO and ACO people, all great people doing a hard job. And, a few folks up the chain in aircraft certification and policy. Now, I've started at the other end, the only other people I can get to are my elected federal representatives. House and Senate members who can at least bring the issue up above the noise a little.
 

JP JR

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I've started to work this problem from the top down. The way the FAA certifies autopilots is tailor made for the electromechanical autopilots of the mid 20th century. Every time the FAA gets a certification request for new model or sub-model aircraft to approve, they seem to go back to square one in their certification procedure as if they'd never see the autopilot system before and don't understand anything about it. Modern microprocessor driven autopilots that are part of an integrated system need a completely different certification methodology.

The guidance that forces this on ACO engineers seriously needs to be looked at. And, it's not just me saying that. A 2016 paper written jointly by people from NASA, The US Air Force, The FAA and University of Tulsa explained;

"The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has been interested in alternate certification strategies for small aircraft systems for several years. The Agency recognizes that new technologies are available that could significantly increase safety. However, many of these technologies are not being implemented or certified due to several barriers. Some of these barriers include the certification burden of outdated regulations."

"Of primary importance is reducing the certification burden for systems which will improve overall aircraft safety, which is consistent with the core purpose of the certification process."

"The most frequent causes of fatal mishaps that afflict small aircraft are: loss of control (LOC), controlled flight into terrain (CFIT), and component failure involving the power plant. Of particular interest is LOC, which accounts for over 40% of the total fatal mishaps. In many instances, LOC statistics—as well as CFIT statistics - which are due to spatial disorientation or pilot distraction - could be significantly improved with the addition of even very simple autopilot systems..."


A look at NTSB statistics in certified and experimental aircraft will tell you that autopilots do not show up as a cause, except in the cases where they are installed and not used. Conversely, Loss Of Control accidents really do kill significant numbers of people. Odds players would tell you that reducing the administrative burdens to the installation of autopilots in more GA aircraft is a sure bet.

A change in guidance to recognize that autopilot systems certification should have two distinct certification tasks. This would greatly reduce the certification burden. Stage one, certify the autopilot system along with enough flight testing in a few aircraft types that there is some certainty that they can be safely applied across a broad range of types. Stage two, is approving data for the mechanical process of mounting servos to the airframes and safe attachments to flight controls. Along with this are some limitations detailed in the AFMS for each specific type. Most of the stage two detail has been previously worked out for most of the 600 types on Dynon's AML. There are lots of examples and they have been shown over time to be safe.

In my conversations and emails with people at the FAA it is clear to me that it is very hard for them to push guidance changes up the chain and are really captives of the guidance they have. Maybe that's as it should be, but it's what imparts so much inertia to the regulatory system. We are the lobsters boiling in the pot. If these accidents killed hundreds of people at a time like the 737 Max problems it would get instant attention from the top down and changes would be made in short order. Because we die in 2's and 3's the issue is easier to ignore.

For better or worse, I only have access to the top and the bottom of the chain. I've worked with the FSDO and ACO people, all great people doing a hard job. And, a few folks up the chain in aircraft certification and policy. Now, I've started at the other end, the only other people I can get to are my elected federal representatives. House and Senate members who can at least bring the issue up above the noise a little.
This is a GREAT perspective. and sure each and every person contacting our elected representatives will help little by little. I think a open letter explaining this directed to the AOPA and EAA and other organizations that have strong lobbying groups already in place can most certainly have a greater impact than each of us as individuals. If you are interested in putting this as a written proposal address to those organizations, I'm most certain that we could find a lot of folks on this board patiently waiting for the FAA process that would be willing to co sign your letter in a effort to get a larger concerted effort to achieve some results!

I would sign on today!
 

Bill Putney

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John,

I've fallen short of putting that out as an open letter. I'm not bashful about doing that. I have spoken to the AOPA rep to the General Aviation Joint Steering Committee (GAJSC) which is a stakeholder's group that was established to work on improving General Aviation safety. Even at that level, they feel the systemic inertia when they make suggestions aimed at changing the guidance the FAA issues to its various branches. There seems to be resistance to the idea that making a process easier can improve safety.

That said, I don't want to create conflicts within a group that is struggling to address so many important things.

I know who to send that letter to at the AOPA, I'm not so sure about who that would be at the EAA. They refer to GAJSC but don't give specifics. Anyone know?

I'm 100% open to suggestions about what the content of such a letter should be and to whom is should be directed.

Regards,

Bill


2020GAJSCStructure.png
 
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M20Driver

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Good stuff to read here, hopefully this will change sooner than later. I've long felt the FAA is to the point now of inhibiting affordable safety promoting devices, and advancement in aviation, due to over regulation, regulations that make it almost impossible to advance. Even reading through NORSEE, and its intended purpose, it seems it "should" be simple, but sadly isn't.
 

Bill Putney

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Messages
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For anyone who's interested in helping create a political groundswell, here is a list of the members of the U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate who sit on Aviation Safety related committees. If you're not sure who yours are, type your zip code (they ask for your address, but they don't need it) into this page https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members. Then look at the list below and see if your Representative or Senator is on a key Aviation Safety Committee.

Feel free to write your own message or plagiarize from what I've written with my full permission.

Screen Shot 2021-08-28 at 11.03.27 AM.png
 

RVDan

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The organization that has been intimately involved with speeding up or reducing cert requirements is the AEA. They drovethebus on the part 23 rewrite andAML STCs for avionivsin small airplanes. Contact Ric Peri, RICP@AEA.net. I have worked Cert issues with them for years, Dynon is a member company.
 
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