Autopilot certification PA-24

[GT3]

I realize the ”keep it close to the chest” policy makes this impossible to answer precisely for all the reason that have been previously discussed but I’d really like to know if the Piper PA-24 is even on the radar for A/P certification?

The only viable option at the moment is Trio and based on feedback it’s not great and limited with regards to functionality so not a viable option, for me at least…

I find it difficult to understand how small companies like the STC Group can push through with paperwork while bigger, albeit not like “G”, can’t find a quicker path to approval?!?

Our community is large, extremely active and people are spending serious money on these planes for evident reasons and not having a proper A/P option that ultimately increases safety doesn’t make sense to me.

I would appreciate any input from HQ…

Thanks

 

[Dynon]

Over the past few years, we've found it near-impossible to predict availability dates even on airplanes we have in-house getting R&D attention. For aircraft models beyond that, we've shuffled the list of future aircraft based on various factors. Therefore, we don't consider any thinking about "what's coming next" firm until we've committed to it by starting the program.

So, our policy is to only report airplanes we're working on actively (meaning, it's in the hangar) and report relative progress on those. That information is available here: https://www.dynoncertified.com/upcoming-approvals.php.

Unfortunately, that means we aren't able to give you much guidance that will give you the real answer you're looking for. While I want to say "don't worry, it will be soon!", we don't want to mislead you. We ARE overdue to work on AP for some Piper singles - and we will - but at this moment we can't give you an idea of where the PA-24 is on the roadmap.

 

[Cwerner]

@GT3 I'm right here with you. I bought my HDX system when the PA-24 was on the list to be blessed with an auto pilot. (2019) My panel is cut for the control head and has a cover plate on it. I'll keep hand flying with the hope that one day the Dynon A/P.

 

[GT3]

Over the past few years, we've found it near-impossible to predict availability dates even on airplanes we have in-house getting R&D attention. For aircraft models beyond that, we've shuffled the list of future aircraft based on various factors. Therefore, we don't consider any thinking about "what's coming next" firm until we've committed to it by starting the program.

So, our policy is to only report airplanes we're working on actively (meaning, it's in the hangar) and report relative progress on those. That information is available here: https://www.dynoncertified.com/upcoming-approvals.php.

Unfortunately, that means we aren't able to give you much guidance that will give you the real answer you're looking for. While I want to say "don't worry, it will be soon!", we don't want to mislead you. We ARE overdue to work on AP for some Piper singles - and we will - but at this moment we can't give you an idea of where the PA-24 is on the roadmap.

I appreciate the reply, it’s funny how without saying anything really, you managed not to sound to ”politician“ like and I thank you for that.

Considering the fact that the model line from the PA-24 180, 250, 400 and the PA-30 has been demonstrated to have no fundamental structural changes in airframes and the fact that it’s a 160kn traveling machine that came with factory A/P options make it a logical candidate for approval in my biased opinion.

I chose Dynon because the product is great and I loved the philosophy of not taking advantage of customers by gouging them senselessly, couldn’t be happier with my choice. Hopefully in the near future I‘ll be able to use my HDX system to its fullest capability and add a couple servos!

 

[GT3]

@Cwerner I’m in exactly the same boat my friend!

When I see or hear about all these Comanche drivers installing G5s or GI275s with a GFC500 for more then they would spend on a complete HDX suite with all the bells and whistles PLUS A/P I can’t help but ask myself what the hell is wrong with these people but I obviously can’t debate or support Dynon in these discussions without A/P being available.

I’m afraid that if Dynon lets their bean counters decide what models should be selected next for approval they might chose the PA-28 based on numbers but when you look at it from a market standpoint it wouldn’t make any sense commercially since most are trainers and transition planes that people generally keep stock and don’t upgrade cause they‘ll never get their money out of it and know they’ll get out of them as soon as they can afford it… You and I know that a PA-24 is generally a forever plane and most are an IFR platform that is begging for a proper integrated A/P.

I’ve mostly lived my life on hopes & dreams and it’s paid off till now so I’ll stick with that program and keep my fingers crossed that we won’t be forgotten by Dynon.

Still, I’m extremely happy with my choice and will continue to be an ambassador for the brand.

 

[WorkingWarbirds]

I'm in line for a '62 Comanche 250 when I can sell some of the other planes. This should be my forever bird, so I hope at some point it makes the list. That said, the early 35 Bonanza guys are still waiting years later, so I'd buy the Trio if you really want something that works for now.

 

[GT3]

I'm in line for a '62 Comanche 250 when I can sell some of the other planes. This should be my forever bird, so I hope at some point it makes the list. That said, the early 35 Bonanza guys are still waiting years later, so I'd buy the Trio if you really want something that works for now.

Not sure what you would be transitioning from but I’m sure you’ll love the 250, it’s an amazing plane, good luck with your sales!

I’m not in a rush for A/P right this minute, one of my occupational hazards is the need to plan ahead and have a clear roadmap laid out before starting something. One of my pet peeves in life is doing something halfway or doing things twice, I simply can’t, prefer not doing it at all. Ask my wife, there are a few reno projects around the house that have been dragging on for way too long because of my affliction but she knows that when it finally gets done it’s outstanding so she doesn’t bother me about it…

This is why I asked the question simply IF the 24 was even on the list, I didn’t expect a timeline but would have settled for something along the lines of “Yes, we intend to work on the Comanche at some point in the future…”

The Trio would be an “acceptable” option only if Dynon A/P approval wasn’t in the sights and only when the software update allowing the Trio to be controlled by the HDX interface is released. I don’t think Trio is a bad option but it’s limited, doesn’t support radio navigation, only GPS, minimums aren’t great and reviews are mixed. Interestingly, they got the PA-24 approved in about 6 months and with was said to be about 30k in customer pre-orders to fund the development.

I’ve seen this movie before, I know how it ends! I’ll get the Trio installed and right after my flight testing and gain calibrations the Dynon website will have the Comanche on the “in process” list for approval…

I’m hoping @Dynon finally started working with the Chicago FAA office and that Government “Covid“ bureaucracy delays are behind us so things can finally start to move forward at a normal pace again soon which would help them accelerate approvals. I wouldn’t use the last 3 years of developments as a benchmark for normal operating speeds, that wouldn’t be fair to them.

Happy Holidays

 

[OgieOglethorpe]

I’m hoping @Dynon finally started working with the Chicago FAA office and that Government “Covid“ bureaucracy delays are behind us so

Happy Holidays

Did I miss something on using a different fsdo?

Government delays weren't entirely covid based. Have you ever been to the DMV?

 

[GT3]

Did I miss something on using a different fsdo?

Government delays weren't entirely covid based. Have you ever been to the DMV?

Trust me, I’m very well aware of how any Government operation is mind blowingly slow and inefficient, I’m Canadian…
Covid had people working from home which at the very least dropped an already poor performing system by 50% if I had to guess.

I did read and hear a few things through the grapevine in the past couple years to the affect that the Seattle FSDO seemed very slow and was partially to blame for Dynon’s inability to get approvals out faster and the idea of switching was discussed but thats just hearsay. From my understanding G uses Chicago and I know the STCGroup uses them as well, both are rolling out approvals much faster it seems.

 

[Rhino]

I don’t think Dynon gets to choose the approval authority. It's based on their geographic location.

 

[OgieOglethorpe]

Trust me, I’m very well aware of how any Government operation is mind blowingly slow and inefficient, I’m Canadian…
Covid had people working from home which at the very least dropped an already poor performing system by 50% if I had to guess.

I did read and hear a few things through the grapevine in the past couple years to the affect that the Seattle FSDO seemed very slow and was partially to blame for Dynon’s inability to get approvals out faster and the idea of switching was discussed but thats just hearsay. From my understanding G uses Chicago and I know the STCGroup uses them as well, both are rolling out approvals much faster it seems.

Pretty sure Garmin uses the Wichita ACO Same one as Cessna. Wichita ACO is the GA hub. Seattle meanwhile has Boeing and the max fiasco that got priority and scrutiny to how they operated.

ACO is for modifications

 

[Dynon]

I appreciate the reply, it’s funny how without saying anything really, you managed not to sound to ”politician“ like and I thank you for that.

Considering the fact that the model line from the PA-24 180, 250, 400 and the PA-30 has been demonstrated to have no fundamental structural changes in airframes and the fact that it’s a 160kn traveling machine that came with factory A/P options make it a logical candidate for approval in my biased opinion.

I chose Dynon because the product is great and I loved the philosophy of not taking advantage of customers by gouging them senselessly, couldn’t be happier with my choice. Hopefully in the near future I‘ll be able to use my HDX system to its fullest capability and add a couple servos!

The Piper PA-XX series are all very similar, but yet they then chunk up into various sub-configurations. We're overdue for ANY piper single, admittedly, and so that's a high priority. From there, we hope there's enough similarity that we can deliver a family of models - probably not in a single project - but with some better efficiency.

 

[GT3]

If Oprah says so…

 

[Kingiscmn]

Needed a PA24 auto pilot also!!

 

[Cwerner]

Keep an eye out for an update from the STC Group Proplilot. They have a couple efis interfaces approved and they claim the Dynon interface is next up.

 

[GT3]

So the word in the grapevine is that the PA28 is the next Piper single to get a look for AP certification! I hope that was a bad joke cause if it isn’t someone at @Dynon will be loosing their job, nobody is spending money on Cherokee’s full stop. When you figure all and all that the investment for a Dynon setup will be more than the value of the plane itself that wouldn’t make much fiscal sens… I really hope my intel is wrong.

 

[Kingiscmn]

I hope it's true. About to dump $40k on a garmin system but would rather have Dynon with AP

 

[OgieOglethorpe]

So the word in the grapevine is that the PA28 is the next Piper single to get a look for AP certification! I hope that was a bad joke cause if it isn’t someone at @Dynon will be loosing their job, nobody is spending money on Cherokee’s full stop. When you figure all and all that the investment for a Dynon setup will be more than the value of the plane itself that wouldn’t make much fiscal sens… I really hope my intel is wrong.

Lol. "Next Piper Single"....ummm only piper single...

The pa28 isn't just a Cherokee. Warrior, archer, Dakota, Arrow...a whole lot more pa28's than 32's...but 32 owners are more likely to be keeping their birds for a long time. I should know...I have both a Cherokee 180 (mine) and a Cherokee Six in the hangar. The six has a dual HDX and aerocruz 100...but I can guarantee the ac100 would be yanked at annual if the Dynon was available.

I'm not opposed to throwing in an autopilot in the 180...but I'd rather see it for the pa32 despite it already having an autopilot.

 

[GT3]

Lol. "Next Piper Single"....ummm only piper single...

The pa28 isn't just a Cherokee. Warrior, archer, Dakota, Arrow...a whole lot more pa28's than 32's...but 32 owners are more likely to be keeping their birds for a long time. I should know...I have both a Cherokee 180 (mine) and a Cherokee Six in the hangar. The six has a dual HDX and aerocruz 100...but I can guarantee the ac100 would be yanked at annual if the Dynon was available.

I'm not opposed to throwing in an autopilot in the 180...but I'd rather see it for the pa32 despite it already having an autopilot.

Agreed on the 32 but would be surprised of the market impact for Dynon on the 28 but that’s just my opinion and god knows I’ve been wrong before! I don’t see the Cherooke/Warrior/Archer/Arrow/Dakota falling under the same certificate as the airframes have significant difference. At the same time it all seems so trivial, why does Dynon seem to have such a hard time getting these STCs processed. I guess I’m just a little disappointed and upset by the perceived lack of action… Squeaky wheel gets the grease I guess!

 

[WorkingWarbirds]

Agreed on the 32 but would be surprised of the market impact for Dynon on the 28 but that’s just my opinion and god knows I’ve been wrong before! I don’t see the Cherooke/Warrior/Archer/Arrow/Dakota falling under the same certificate as the airframes have significant difference. At the same time it all seems so trivial, why does Dynon seem to have such a hard time getting these STCs processed. I guess I’m just a little disappointed and upset by the perceived lack of action… Squeaky wheel gets the grease I guess!

There are almost certainly 10x the number of PA28 variants flying than PA24. Lets call a spade a spade. Its a current production airplane vs. one that production ended 50 years ago. I would love if the PA24/30/39 got the love first, but from a financial standpoint, especially with the number of flight schools throwing money at older airframes, it doesn’t make sense