Bought a Seneca III for my HDX

[TheFruck]

Yes its true... cart before the horse... I just got my Seneca III home and its time to start tearing it apart. One of the primary reasons I picked the Seneca III was Dynon's certification of Panel and Autopilot. I was intrigued that my IA and I could install a panel ourselves. We are pretty handy types having maintained a beautiful Twin Comanche for about 14 years, to include DIY engine overhauls and panel updates. It has been a great airplane but the wife wanted something bigger... I assume she meant airplane.
I started conversations a few months before taking delivery of the airplane, with Kyle from Dynon. Was fortunate enough to catch him at the AOPA Expo at AFW a few weeks ago, and got the opportunity to put my hands on the equipment. My plan is a 3 big screen solution tied into a IFD 540/GNC255A and am PMA450B audio panel.
Squeezing all in has been a challenge. Originally I wanted to put the 540 in low next to the throttle quadrant, kinda like modern G3000 equipped airplanes, but it was clear that this was not going to be possible due to the yoke interconnects behind the scenes. Long story longer, we are at about version 5. I have attached my rough layout to this post and invite recommendations.
One of my biggest concerns is the ability to eliminate the stock Piper Annunciator Panel. It would seem that all of these Annunciations will be reproduced in software and related CAS messages can be set. Seeking input on this elimination, citing reason why I can or cant accomplish this legally.
Second to that is the instrument panel. My current plan has me purchasing Panel Planner software and working with a yet undetermined local company to cut my design. Looks like I have to purchase 5 panel licenses to do this, but it meets my DIY nature... just wish there was a cheaper method. I have seen some discussion as to whether the new panel is considered a minor or major alteration. While the skyview installations instructions have some guidance in the matter, with specifics to replacement panel thickness, I am not certain it is enough to say that it is covered as part of the STC. What have others experienced with this?
While I am sure I will have a ton of other questions, I will keep it at that for now. I appreciate feedback from PA34 and 32 owners alike, I also appreciate feedback from other dissimilar types. I have begun the purchase process with the Non Dynon stuff and will be ordering the Dynon product in the very near future.

Thanks,
--mick
N83932

 

[PYoder]

Yes its true... cart before the horse... I just got my Seneca III home and its time to start tearing it apart. One of the primary reasons I picked the Seneca III was Dynon's certification of Panel and Autopilot. I was intrigued that my IA and I could install a panel ourselves. We are pretty handy types having maintained a beautiful Twin Comanche for about 14 years, to include DIY engine overhauls and panel updates. It has been a great airplane but the wife wanted something bigger... I assume she meant airplane.
I started conversations a few months before taking delivery of the airplane, with Kyle from Dynon. Was fortunate enough to catch him at the AOPA Expo at AFW a few weeks ago, and got the opportunity to put my hands on the equipment. My plan is a 3 big screen solution tied into a IFD 540/GNC255A and am PMA450B audio panel.
Squeezing all in has been a challenge. Originally I wanted to put the 540 in low next to the throttle quadrant, kinda like modern G3000 equipped airplanes, but it was clear that this was not going to be possible due to the yoke interconnects behind the scenes. Long story longer, we are at about version 5. I have attached my rough layout to this post and invite recommendations.
One of my biggest concerns is the ability to eliminate the stock Piper Annunciator Panel. It would seem that all of these Annunciations will be reproduced in software and related CAS messages can be set. Seeking input on this elimination, citing reason why I can or cant accomplish this legally.
Second to that is the instrument panel. My current plan has me purchasing Panel Planner software and working with a yet undetermined local company to cut my design. Looks like I have to purchase 5 panel licenses to do this, but it meets my DIY nature... just wish there was a cheaper method. I have seen some discussion as to whether the new panel is considered a minor or major alteration. While the skyview installations instructions have some guidance in the matter, with specifics to replacement panel thickness, I am not certain it is enough to say that it is covered as part of the STC. What have others experienced with this?
While I am sure I will have a ton of other questions, I will keep it at that for now. I appreciate feedback from PA34 and 32 owners alike, I also appreciate feedback from other dissimilar types. I have begun the purchase process with the Non Dynon stuff and will be ordering the Dynon product in the very near future.

Thanks,
--mick
N83932

I too am a DIY guy. You’re making your life more difficult by squeezing everything in so tight. Attached is my project!

 

[JP JR]

Hi I have a 1962 Cessna 182 with a lower glare shield that later models and we bare squeaked in two 10” Dynon HDX on our panel and it took significant structural changes like removing the original radio stack support. You have a lot more room to work with but two things to consider.
1. if your similarly removing the original radio stack supporting structure, like I did, it’s most likely a major alteration, mine was, we were required to hire a DER, https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/individual_designees/der/
to provide approval and plans that show the structural changes would be acceptable.
2. you might not have enough room in the top corners to maintain the structural integrity of the support behind the panel. Before you get to far you’re going to determine how much room you have back there before Finalizing your plan.

 

[ilateapex]

Having the second screen so far over seems awkward to me. I was able to install 2 - 10” screens and put radios in right side factory radio stack. Not sure how the III may vary vs a II. I have provisions for a third screen on far right where glove box is. Don’t see any use in it for now. Also, one screen is dedicated to engine monitoring. Or at least half of it.

 

[TheFruck]

Having the second screen so far over seems awkward to me. I was able to install 2 - 10” screens and put radios in right side factory radio stack. Not sure how the III may vary vs a II. I have provisions for a third screen on far right where glove box is. Don’t see any use in it for now. Also, one screen is dedicated to engine monitoring. Or at least half of it.

Third Screen is exclusively for my 13 year old copilot.
2nd (middle screen) for engines and charts… It’s a little further over than I would prefer, but I dont want the GPS over on the other side either. I think I would be reach across the EMS screen to the GPS more than I would if the 540 I right next to the PFD. I see that you have centered the PFD on the yoke. Unfortunately with that much screen real estate, I will have to center the yoke on the Right half of the screen and set that up to display PFD.
—mick

 

[TheFruck]

Having the second screen so far over seems awkward to me. I was able to install 2 - 10” screens and put radios in right side factory radio stack. Not sure how the III may vary vs a II. I have provisions for a third screen on far right where glove box is. Don’t see any use in it for now. Also, one screen is dedicated to engine monitoring. Or at least half of it.

Also. Can I ask who did your panel? I suspect Saint Aviation?

 

[ilateapex]

Yes. Saint Aviation.

Keep in mind that you have to touch the D10A with every new altimeter setting (theoretically).

Also, you can do engine monitor on half screen and map on half or PFD on half. Etc. only seem to use my radios to change frequency. Flight plan loaded via ForeFlight and flight stream 210. Basically I play with HDX more than GPS.

michael

 

[TheFruck]

Yes. Saint Aviation.

Keep in mind that you have to touch the D10A with every new altimeter setting (theoretically).

Also, you can do engine monitor on half screen and map on half or PFD on half. Etc. only seem to use my radios to change frequency. Flight plan loaded via ForeFlight and flight stream 210. Basically I play with HDX more than GPS.

michael

Michael,
That is something to think about. I haven’t gotten the panel apart yet, but the Pilot PFD and radio stack appear to fit with in the bounds of the Left half of the Panel. If I would do as you have done, I suspect it will likely cross that “Minor vs Major” panel work line and open another can of worms. There is a break there that at least from this point appears to have a brace behind it… will know more about that soon. I was going to have Jesse do my panel as well, then he said it would take 6 months to get me in. I figured I could take that 6 months and DIY it with my IA. We’ll see if that was a wise choice. One thing I notices with nearly all Jesse’s panels is that I dont see any panel placards. While I am not looking at the POH or Maint Manual, I suspect there are required placards on the Seneca… and nearly all airplanes. Are these missing or otherwise located on your panel?

—mick

 

[ilateapex]

Saint did not install the placards. I purchased a kit and installed them. They are not shown on this picture. It’s possible the structure of the 3 is different than the 2. We were able to miss all the major structural supports.

Michael

 

[milesclassen]

Mick,

Getting ready to pick up my Seneca III from the avionics shop. We removed the annunciator panel and the Dynon performs all the functions it did plus a million more things. We did 2 10” screens and so far I’m pleased with how it turned out.

 

[TheFruck]

Mick,

Getting ready to pick up my Seneca III from the avionics shop. We removed the annunciator panel and the Dynon performs all the functions it did plus a million more things. We did 2 10” screens and so far I’m pleased with how it turned out.

That is Greatness. Really appreciate the feedback. Mine is almost identical, except an extra screen. Exact same radio rack. I have traced out about all the wires, removed all the old autopilot system with the exception of the electric trim. Removed all the wires which wont be used inside any longer... engine gauges and instruments... Placing my Dynon order this week. Radio Rack in hand.

You might be able to help me with a few questions as I am a rookie and DIYing this thing.
Your 255A is it wired via 429, serial or both? Does it take GPS positioning for frequencies and VOR identification?

What is that AC controller?? It almost resembles what is in my boat. The only thing my III was missing was Air. I am looking for an STC'd solution that is electric and runs on it own dedicated Alternator/Generator. There use to be a company that had such an STC, but it has changed hands many times. Keith Air, Meggitt... something else now.

Look forward to your PIREP. Is this a Saint Aviation Install?
--mick

 

[milesclassen]

I couldn’t tell you any of the behind the scenes stuff. I told the shop what I wanted and they made it happen. As far as the air conditioner goes, that is the Arctic Air Real AC. It’s an electric unit with its own Freon compressor. It just sits in the rear baggage area and is considered a portable device. I had it in my Cherokee Six before moving up to the Seneca and it works great in both. It pulls some serious amps but the Seneca factory alternators handle it just fine. Ours is a 14 volt system but they have 24 volt units as well so they should pull less amps. I won’t own another plane without one. Total game changer if you fly in the south.

 

[TheFruck]

I couldn’t tell you any of the behind the scenes stuff. I told the shop what I wanted and they made it happen. As far as the air conditioner goes, that is the Arctic Air Real AC. It’s an electric unit with its own Freon compressor. It just sits in the rear baggage area and is considered a portable device. I had it in my Cherokee Six before moving up to the Seneca and it works great in both. It pulls some serious amps but the Seneca factory alternators handle it just fine. Ours is a 14 volt system but they have 24 volt units as well so they should pull less amps. I won’t own another plane without one. Total game changer if you fly in the south.

Miles, Thats great. Thx for the info. Do you have any pictures of this AC "Installed"? I would like to see how much baggage space it eliminates.
--mick

 

[milesclassen]

Miles, Thats great. Thx for the info. Do you have any pictures of this AC "Installed"? I would like to see how much baggage space it eliminates.
--mick

Mick,
Please see the attached pictures of the AC unit. The rear baggage area is pretty much unusable with the AC back there. You can fit a few small items to the side of it and on the hat rack but you can’t crowd the unit as it needs sufficient air flow around it for the return air. Hope this helps.

 

[SenecaManica]

Reviving the thread from the dead....

I'm currently searching for information on a full Dynon package for my Seneca II.

I'm curious how you like the Autopilot? I can't believe Dynon would put so much time and money into a 2-Axis ONLY for the Seneca....

I have a fully functional KFC 200 3-Axis, but the Dynon won't do anything with it. I want to ditch all steam gauges and go glass. But I'm having troubles getting over the Autopilot falling so short! I'd have to keep my 256 AI and 525 HSI to control it

Let me know how she's handling for you. Thanks!

 

[TheFruck]

Reviving the thread from the dead....

I'm currently searching for information on a full Dynon package for my Seneca II.

I'm curious how you like the Autopilot? I can't believe Dynon would put so much time and money into a 2-Axis ONLY for the Seneca (Dutch roll machine in turbulence).....

I have a fully functional KFC 200 3-Axis, but the Dynon won't do anything with it. I want to ditch all steam gauges and go glass. But I'm having troubles getting over the Autopilot falling so short! I'd have to keep my 256 AI and 525 HSI to control it

Let me know how she's handling for you. Thanks!

I too was worried about the lack of YD. I had heard that would later be added and my e that is still a thing. Dynon did recently come through with another "coming soon" with certification of the autotrim trim amp. I bought that but haven't installed it yet.
But regarding the YD, do I wish I had it. Absolutely. Would I do anything different? Not a chance. Having read some bad press about the Seneca wagging, I was a little apprehensive. I bought the III and had only a trip around the pattern in it... Never flew it under the old avionics. I bought it and had ferried to my home airport and immediately dismantled it. I knew I wanted all the G wiz stuff in a twin. I also knew that I wanted to do the work myself, under the supervision on my IA. There was really no other option and the results speak for themselves I have now only flown the airplane about 12 hours since finishing the install in June. In turbulence there is a bit of a way. Some pressure on the rudder seems to help. I will typically fly 9-1100 feet... It's silky smooth and stable at that altitude. I was shocked that there was basically no adjustments I needed to do to the AP. It worked out of the box... ILS, RNAV, enroute, Alt hold .. all perfect.
If you have any concerns or questions. Come to Fort Worth and let's go fly. Happy to demo before you take the plunge.

--mick