Compatability with DSAB and current units

bigbill25

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Will the NG systems be compatible with the current networking architecture? What I have been thinking of:
  • Make a panel today with a single D180
  • When the NG unit comes out, move the D180 to the right seat
  • Get an EFIS-only NG unit (no EMS) and place in front of the left seat
  • Use DSAB to get EMS info to the NG unit
Would that work?

Also, are you going to give out any new information at Arlington, or will you wait for OSH for the next data dump? Thanks!

--Bill
 

dynonsupport

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The only elements we sell today that are compatible with the NG system are the servos. None of the EFIS or EMS products we sell will network together.

There are a variety of technical and support reasons for this, but we also realize that this causes issues for some customers. We are going to have a very generous trade in program, so that does help anyone that wishes to change to the new system.

We probably won't have any new publications on NG at Arlington, but we will at OSH. We're not holding back much at this point, so if you have any questions just ask.
 

PhantomPholly

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If I offer to write the interface software for free, will you provide me the APIs for new and old DSAB and then create a converter box for those that want it?

Or, simply open up the APIs and let someone else build the interface unit as a "partner?"

:D
 

dynonsupport

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It simply isn't that easy, unfortunately. DSAB is made for a handful of specialized devices (our products), and isn't a generic protocol with APIs like you're thinking it is. In fact, it would likely be more resource intensive to publish all of those details plus make a converter box to enable your scenario.
 

dynonsupport

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Oh, and did we mention that the two networks are at very different speeds, they are bi-directional, and devices are polled, making conversion very, very tricky, if not impossible? ;)

The servos can work cross-system not because they have a converter or anything, but because they were designed with flexible hardware that can run at either speed and will run totally different code when in the NG system. Other products just don't have the hardware to participate in the network.

If we had designed the NG system to run at the lower speeds, then it wouldn't really be a NG system, would it?
 

PhantomPholly

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Oh, and did we mention that the two networks are at very different speeds, they are bi-directional, and devices are polled, making conversion very, very tricky, if not impossible? ;)

Not buying that - if you go the "device" route, you can make one port "look like" a "new DSAB device" and the other port "look like" an "old DSAB DEVICE" - and simply run each at their respective "speeds."

Not disagreeing that it might be more trouble than it is worth; however, will also point out that the experimental world has some really sharp cookies some of whom have nothing pressing to do who might enjoy the project as an "interesting hobby."

The servos can work cross-system not because they have a converter or anything, but because they were designed with flexible hardware that can run at either speed and will run totally different code when in the NG system. Other products just don't have the hardware to participate in the network.

While it may not be possible (or even desirable) to transfer ALL data from ALL devices across the separate DSABs, transferring data such as engine instrument readings or altimeter settings ought to be within the realm of do-able.

If we had designed the NG system to run at the lower speeds, then it wouldn't really be a NG system, would it?

Ok, I get it - you don't want to give up your source code.

IMHO, you are overlooking a business opportunity.  

I understand this decision less than I do the company decision not to support certain discontinued avionics.  In that latter case there are only a few customers likely to be dissatisfied.  In the case of the DSAB, your entire installed base stands to be potential customers.

Think of it this way.  I have a single EFIS today, but in the future may decide it is time to replace my backup vacuum stuff with another glass panel.  I most certainly will NOT buy another current-gen piece - it makes no sense and adds no new value.  

But neither would I consider Dynon's next gen a certain decision.  Why?  Because, lacking interoperability with my old unit there is NO ADVANTAGE to buying same vendor.  I would consider every EFIS out there equally, knowing that only features and dollars count.

In the business world, the cost of keeping an existing customer is generally 10% of the cost of acquiring a new customer - EXCEPT when you don't provide an "easy growth path" for your existing customers...

:-/
 

dynonsupport

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While we don't want to turn this thread into an open source / closed source debate, suffice it to say that we don't have plans to release source code for our products.

You cryptically mention "certain discontinued avionics", and I'm not sure which product(s) you're talking about. The only major product we've discontinued is the EFIS-D10, and almost 5 years ago at that. Every single one of them is well out of warranty at this point, but we still do have a relatively inexpensive flat-rate upgrade path ($350-480, depending on whether you have the EDC / need gray code capability) that turns an EFIS-D10 in need of repair into an EFIS-D10A with a fresh warranty. This program will continue to be in effect for the conceivable future.

As for G1-NG conversions - we do believe that we are providing an easy growth path for our customers in the form of our trade-in program which we'll have more details on soon. Though it doesn't capture every scenario, we believe it maximizes value for existing customers, gives them reasons to remain Dynon customers, while optimizing the balance with our available technical resources.
 

bigbill25

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The only elements we sell today that are compatible with the NG system are the servos. None of the EFIS or EMS products we sell will network together.

And engine probes, right?

We probably won't have any new publications on NG at Arlington, but we will at OSH. We're not holding back much at this point, so if you have any questions just ask.

What will you release at OSH:
  • Price?
  • Upgrade cost?
  • Release date?
  • Features available at release?
  • Final panel space/cutout info?
  • The airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
With the G1 and NG products being non-talking, I would need to wait for the NG update with EMS before I could update from a D180. A feature roadmap would be nice.

Last: Has feature development on the G1 product stoped? Will version 5.1 be the last not-just-a-bug-fix update? I saw somewhere that version 6 was "on hold".

--Bill

p.s. as a software engineer, I fully understand the pain of legacy products. I don't fault you for your choice.
 

dynonsupport

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Engine probes will be compatible too.

We'll be talking about some, but not all, of that list. Exact details are still being discussed.

Feature development on G1 has definitely winded down for now. Here is an older post on that. Whether it starts back up in the future is a decision that will probably come after we get G2 shipping. We'll continue to fix bugs/improve autopilot performance/support the products as we have for years, though.
 

PhantomPholly

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While we don't want to turn this thread into an open source / closed source debate, suffice it to say that we don't have plans to release source code for our products.

Please bear in mind while you read this that I am a vocal supporter of Dynon!

I'm just looking for other ways to keep the door to compatibility open. Why? To protect my investment!  You have ruled out doing it yourselves; you have now ruled out open sourcing and even a volunteer or two willing to sign NDAs.  Like I said, I don't understand the business position but it's your decision to make.

You cryptically mention "certain discontinued avionics", and I'm not sure which product(s) you're talking about. The only major product we've discontinued is the EFIS-D10, and almost 5 years ago at that. Every single one of them is well out of warranty at this point, but we still do have a relatively inexpensive flat-rate upgrade path ($350-480, depending on whether you have the EDC / need gray code capability) that turns an EFIS-D10 in need of repair into an EFIS-D10A with a fresh warranty. This program will continue to be in effect for the conceivable future.

Wasn't trying to be cryptic; I was referring to a generic "vendor x" making decisions not to support backwards compatibility.  In this case, discontinuing growth of Gen 1 and not providing compatibility with NextGen equates to "no upgrade path" in the minds of many, myself included.  My original point was that you have negated your market advantage to existing customers with this decision.  That isn't strictly opinion, this is a proven loyalty / marketing fact - when you don't provide backwards integration with your own products, customers no longer will choose your product at upgrade time by default.  Will it cost you a lot of business?  I don't know - but I do know that at this point in time you are no longer at "rough parity" with the latest competition - and won't be until you release Next Gen (although you may still offer the best entry level EFIS).  In marketing terms, you can only narrow your focus so much before you risk being marginalized.

As for G1-NG conversions - we do believe that we are providing an easy growth path for our customers in the form of our trade-in program which we'll have more details on soon. Though it doesn't capture every scenario, we believe it maximizes value for existing customers, gives them reasons to remain Dynon customers, while optimizing the balance with our available technical resources.

You can believe that if you wish.  Having installed my D-180 and HS34 in my panel as an upgrade from steam gages, it is a lot of work.  NextGen won't even fit in the same holes, so I'll have to re-do my panel again if some day I get another (presumably better) EFIS.  Why would I buy another EMS when I have one that works fine?  And, why would I be happy with a new EFIS that cannot be counted upon to display my EMS info in the event that my then aging D180 screen conks out?  

If I have to replace my old EFIS/EMS and completely re-do my panel in order to integrate with a new EFIS, I can guarantee that I will completely re-evaluate the market at the time such a decision is considered.  That would not be true if I could simply plug in a new EFIS, and I have to believe others feel the same way.
 

dynonsupport

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First off, we are NOT discontinuing current products in case anyone got that impression. If you want to buy a D100 in a year, you can. We fully understand that NG is not for everyone.

We ARE supporting current customers. We have a trade in program for current products. You can move to the next system without paying full price for everything.

Here's one way to look at it: Your D10A or D100 will trade in for at least what a NG AHRS module costs. Your D10 or D120 will trade in for at least what a NG EMS module costs. A D180 will trade in for at least what an EMS and AHRS module costs.

So instead of keeping your current gen screens, you get the functionality that they could provide on the DSAB bus, and probably make some money at it. Instead of having to spend extra money on some sort of converter.

On top of that, you will actually get all the advanced functionality that the NG modules can provide instead of just a limited set that some converter might be able to do.

The situation where you want a second AHRS doesn't really worry us either. Dynon already sells the lowest priced EFIS units on the market, including our new, incredibly low priced D6 and D60. So if price is an issue, you're going to be staying with us. If price is not an issue, well, then why are you not buying a second NG screen and ADAHRS module? Doing that gives you a HUGE amount of redundancy. You now have two screens and two AHRS units, which are fully networked and redundant, and are still the least expensive things out there.

If you already have a NG EFIS, and you buy a D100, what exactly do you want shared between them? I guess the baro setting would be nice, but there is no reason for them to share attitude data. They each have a local AHRS, and they can't communicate if one fails, so there is no redundancy. What's the point in sending engine data from a D180 to the NG? Now you have TONS of panel space taken up by things that aren't redundant, but burn screen space doing the same thing as one another. Just run the D180 as the EMS- doing EMS on the NG panel won't gain you anything unless you are running the NG EMS module, since the real gains are in hardware in that system. Once you have a NG EFIS in the plane, you won't use the D180 as a PFD unless the NG fails, so the D180 can just be your 100% EMS.

The only reason to really convert EMS and AHRS data is for someone that wants to just buy a NG screen and then use the current product to display on the screen. We think we've covered this pretty well with the trade in program. Given that the screens are going to be the expensive part of the system (both in cost and panel space), not the modules, using data from some other thing with a screen emulating a module doesn't make a lot of sense.

We are always sorry when a customer wishes we were taking a different path, but please do know that we have considered this decision heavily.

We do hope you evaluate the market when you are in the mood to upgrade. Dynon will still be the highest price/performance ratio out there, and as a current customer, that will be even better because you can trade stuff in.

From a software side, of course it's possible to do conversion, but there's no way it's a simple give someone a bit of source code and let them go at it. For instance, the EMS on G1 and the EMS on NG don't even send the same kind of data over the network, so the converter would actually need to know the whole airplane's configuration in order to do the conversion. It's meant to be a closed network where well proven Dynon equipment lives. There's basic assumptions about devices on the NG bus, like we can update their firmware at any time and change messages that they send or use. How is any converter going to keep up to date? A converter is just not a viable product.
 

bigbill25

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One more question:

Will the NG stuff have video input to support FLIR and other video sources? If so, will you have a scaler in the product to support Picture-In-Picture style EFIS plus FLIR?

--Bill
 

dynonsupport

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Eventually, the software will support video in, but it will be a little while. No idea exactly how/where we will display it on the screen.

Has any company actually come out with a Dynon-priced FLIR camera? Say sub $2,000?
 

16FW

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Has any company actually come out with a Dynon-priced FLIR camera? Say sub $2,000?
The EAA newsletter said FLIR was introducing a lower price unit to be unveiled at Oshkosh.
 

bigbill25

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Eventually, the software will support video in, but it will be a little while. No idea exactly how/where we will display it on the screen.

Has any company actually come out with a Dynon-priced FLIR camera? Say sub $2,000?
I just want to make sure the hardware supports it. It seems your hardware design cycle is around the 5-year mark, so the question should be "do you expect to have a Dynon-priced FLIR camera in the next 5 years?" My answer to that is yes :)

Also, a video-in could be used today for < $100 visible-spectrum cameras so tail-draggers could see where the heck they are taxing!

--Bill
 

PhantomPholly

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Many of today's "low light" B&W cameras can provide excellent pictures provided they are coupled to a system which supports "gamma correction" (like a typical PC video card will provide through it's control panel). It is extraordinarily rare that a night is completely black, and such cameras could easily provide a view of the runway illuminated by landing lights.
 
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