Hey Dynon, any chance there could be a duel band Adsb unit coming? In my area you must be 1500 agl to even start receiving adsb from a ground station. There are also regional airliners coming in and out of the local airport turning final right over my grass strip. They are transmitting 1080. Currently this traffic is not shown on the Skyview system due to low altitude. Additionally it would be nice if you could make the adsb unit WiFi connect to multiple devices such as Avare, Foreflight...etc.
Dual Band ADS-B
- Thread starter shenweas
- Start date
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
It remains a possibility, but we don't have anything to talk about at this point. Thanks for letting us know about your interest and usage scenario though!
It remains a possibility, but we don't have anything to talk about at this point. Thanks for letting us know about your interest and usage scenario though!
Me too. Aside from the fact that Dynon's ADS-B rx is surprisingly nearly twice as expensive as the nominal ADS-B rx, the fact that it's single-band is a real concern, given a good deal of traffic will only comply OUT on 1090.
This triggered my own re-analysis of what to do to take my VFR plane IFR, adding autopilot, redundancy, WAAS etc.. G3X is barely more expensive overall.
This triggered my own re-analysis of what to do to take my VFR plane IFR, adding autopilot, redundancy, WAAS etc.. G3X is barely more expensive overall.
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
I am confused. Don't the Dynon transponders receive TIS on 1090 already so if you have the ADS-B module you get both 1090 and 978 traffic? Or does the transponder only "wake up" the system and we receive all traffic via the ADS-B module via 978?
I am confused. Don't the Dynon transponders receive TIS on 1090 already so if you have the ADS-B module you get both 1090 and 978 traffic? Or does the transponder only "wake up" the system and we receive all traffic via the ADS-B module via 978?
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1425003401/1#1
Here is Dynons answer re-posted.
Like Weasel, i fly out of an airport without ADS-B ground coverage. The nearest broadcast antenna is over a 1000 or so foot coastal range. Thus, coverage is spotty until i am at 2,000 to 3,000 ft range.
I initially thought that airplanes with only Mode-S broadcasting 1090 out would be visible with dual-band, but according to Dynon above, that is not the case. hmmm.
Thus, given the above OP and Dynon's response, are airliners Mode-S equipped but broadcasting only ADS-B out 1090 only? Thus, that is why we do not receive them directly?
Thus, your statement that we do not see only 5% of GA aircraft, but does that mean we do not see 100% of airliners broadcasting 1090 only?
http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1425003401/1#1
Here is Dynons answer re-posted.
Like Weasel, i fly out of an airport without ADS-B ground coverage. The nearest broadcast antenna is over a 1000 or so foot coastal range. Thus, coverage is spotty until i am at 2,000 to 3,000 ft range.
I initially thought that airplanes with only Mode-S broadcasting 1090 out would be visible with dual-band, but according to Dynon above, that is not the case. hmmm.
Thus, given the above OP and Dynon's response, are airliners Mode-S equipped but broadcasting only ADS-B out 1090 only? Thus, that is why we do not receive them directly?
Thus, your statement that we do not see only 5% of GA aircraft, but does that mean we do not see 100% of airliners broadcasting 1090 only?
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 13,226
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
An ADS-B receiver can only see aircraft with ADS-B out unless a ground station is in sight. Period. Just having 1090 out (any transponder) or even a Mode-S transponder doesn't make them visible. You need a UAT or 1090 ES, and it needs to be hooked to a GPS.
You're not going to believe this, but according to the FAA, only 297 airliners have ADS-B out right now, out of 7,400 airliners. That's 4%. If you're relying on 1090 ADS-B without a ground station to see airliners, that's a false sense of security. On top of that, Boeing and Airbus are so behind that they are asking the FAA for an extension on the rule.
As for GA aircraft, there are 11,000 ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft, out of 200,000 active airplanes. So you have a slightly higher chance of seeing one of those, at about 6%. Of the GA planes, about 66% are 1090 out and 33% are UAT out.
The reality is, you really need TIS-B to see any reasonable number of planes. TIS-B is the uplink of aircraft with any transponder, as seen by radar or multilateration. You can only see these aircraft when you are in the range of a ground station, and when you are in range, you see exactly the same aircraft if you have single or dual band ADS-B IN.
So, the reality is that today, dual band will help you see about 2% more aircraft when you're out of range of a ground station. So instead of missing 96% of aircraft, you're missing 98%.
The reason dual band exists is for aircraft that don't have ADS-B OUT. With these aircraft, it was helpful to listen on both bands because you'd never get the uplink from the ADS-B ground station because you couldn't wake it up, so you had to hope someone else would wake it up, and you didn't know if that would be on 1090 or 978. But all Dynon systems wake up the ground station, so that's a total non issue.
Remember, after 2020, only aircraft that go into Class C/B airspace need ADS-B out. Even the FAA estimates that only about 70% of aircraft will equip. It's really our opinion that relying on ADS-B traffic in any way when you don't have ground station coverage is really a bad idea. It's why Dynon systems make your traffic coverage status so prominent.
--Ian Jordan
Chief Systems Architect
An ADS-B receiver can only see aircraft with ADS-B out unless a ground station is in sight. Period. Just having 1090 out (any transponder) or even a Mode-S transponder doesn't make them visible. You need a UAT or 1090 ES, and it needs to be hooked to a GPS.
You're not going to believe this, but according to the FAA, only 297 airliners have ADS-B out right now, out of 7,400 airliners. That's 4%. If you're relying on 1090 ADS-B without a ground station to see airliners, that's a false sense of security. On top of that, Boeing and Airbus are so behind that they are asking the FAA for an extension on the rule.
As for GA aircraft, there are 11,000 ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft, out of 200,000 active airplanes. So you have a slightly higher chance of seeing one of those, at about 6%. Of the GA planes, about 66% are 1090 out and 33% are UAT out.
The reality is, you really need TIS-B to see any reasonable number of planes. TIS-B is the uplink of aircraft with any transponder, as seen by radar or multilateration. You can only see these aircraft when you are in the range of a ground station, and when you are in range, you see exactly the same aircraft if you have single or dual band ADS-B IN.
So, the reality is that today, dual band will help you see about 2% more aircraft when you're out of range of a ground station. So instead of missing 96% of aircraft, you're missing 98%.
The reason dual band exists is for aircraft that don't have ADS-B OUT. With these aircraft, it was helpful to listen on both bands because you'd never get the uplink from the ADS-B ground station because you couldn't wake it up, so you had to hope someone else would wake it up, and you didn't know if that would be on 1090 or 978. But all Dynon systems wake up the ground station, so that's a total non issue.
Remember, after 2020, only aircraft that go into Class C/B airspace need ADS-B out. Even the FAA estimates that only about 70% of aircraft will equip. It's really our opinion that relying on ADS-B traffic in any way when you don't have ground station coverage is really a bad idea. It's why Dynon systems make your traffic coverage status so prominent.
--Ian Jordan
Chief Systems Architect
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 13,226
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
The transponder is a TIS-A client, which is totally different than TIS-B in ADS-B.
TIS-A logs on to a Mode-S ground radar and that radar uplinks up to 8 traffic targets to your plane. This is only supported in Class B and C areas in the USA.
TIS-B is part of ADS-B and can work anywhere. But it's a different technology than TIS-A so even though the transponder gets traffic on 1090 via TIS-A, it can't see ADS-B out targets directly.
The transponder is a TIS-A client, which is totally different than TIS-B in ADS-B.
TIS-A logs on to a Mode-S ground radar and that radar uplinks up to 8 traffic targets to your plane. This is only supported in Class B and C areas in the USA.
TIS-B is part of ADS-B and can work anywhere. But it's a different technology than TIS-A so even though the transponder gets traffic on 1090 via TIS-A, it can't see ADS-B out targets directly.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 13,226
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
The aircraft needs to be a Mode-S transponder with ES to be seen with a 1090 receiver and no ground station in range. As mentioned above, that's 4% of airliners and 4% of GA planes right now. Most airliners are Mode-S, but without ES (which is what makes them ADS-B).
If you have a Dynon SkyView, it's easy to tell which planes have ADS-B out. It's the ones with Tail numbers (or Flight ID's) underneath them. Go fly around and you'll see very few planes with these ID's, especially airliners. The rest do not have ADS-B OUT yet. You won't see these planes unless you have a ground station in sight, even with dual band.
We're based at Paine Field in Washington, where Boeing is also based. It's rare to see an airliner with ADS-B Out, and when you do it's usually a brand new plane on a test flight, and even then not all new planes are equipped. The industry is far from having retrofitted all the old airliners. Many airliners don't even have a GPS on board right now!
The aircraft needs to be a Mode-S transponder with ES to be seen with a 1090 receiver and no ground station in range. As mentioned above, that's 4% of airliners and 4% of GA planes right now. Most airliners are Mode-S, but without ES (which is what makes them ADS-B).
If you have a Dynon SkyView, it's easy to tell which planes have ADS-B out. It's the ones with Tail numbers (or Flight ID's) underneath them. Go fly around and you'll see very few planes with these ID's, especially airliners. The rest do not have ADS-B OUT yet. You won't see these planes unless you have a ground station in sight, even with dual band.
We're based at Paine Field in Washington, where Boeing is also based. It's rare to see an airliner with ADS-B Out, and when you do it's usually a brand new plane on a test flight, and even then not all new planes are equipped. The industry is far from having retrofitted all the old airliners. Many airliners don't even have a GPS on board right now!
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
The problem with saying 4% of GA airplanes, is that includes the old airplane sitting on the ramp that will never fly again.
I would rather know the % of GA airplanes actively flying? That must be some number higher than 4%, i would assume.
Also, I would think that number would increase over time. Upgrading a GTX 330 to ES is about $1200 or so. I see that often mentioned in google searches as one of the cheapest ways to be 2020 compliant for certified planes. Will SV see them as traffic without a ground station? I would think having a single band receiver is going to be a bigger problem going forward for those of us without ground stations.
https://www.appareo.com/aviation/ads-b/stratus/
Thus, if i have the Stratus 2S with a dual-band receiver, i will see the target on the Ipad it sounds like. However, i will not see him on my SV screen.
The problem with saying 4% of GA airplanes, is that includes the old airplane sitting on the ramp that will never fly again.
I would rather know the % of GA airplanes actively flying? That must be some number higher than 4%, i would assume.
Also, I would think that number would increase over time. Upgrading a GTX 330 to ES is about $1200 or so. I see that often mentioned in google searches as one of the cheapest ways to be 2020 compliant for certified planes. Will SV see them as traffic without a ground station? I would think having a single band receiver is going to be a bigger problem going forward for those of us without ground stations.
https://www.appareo.com/aviation/ads-b/stratus/
Thus, if i have the Stratus 2S with a dual-band receiver, i will see the target on the Ipad it sounds like. However, i will not see him on my SV screen.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 13,226
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
It doesn't include ramp queens.
According to the FAA there are 10,000 GA aircraft that have been seen flying with ADS-B out and 220,000 active aircraft.
The AOPA agrees:
http://www.aopa.org/About-AOPA/Gene...s/Active-General-Aviation-Aircraft-in-the-U-S
There are about 300,000 registered airplanes in the USA.
You will not see the 330ES until he upgrades and until there is a certified GPS connected, so it's a lot more than $1,200. Plus, only about 10% of GA aircraft have a 330 for that upgrade path.
But, of of course the equipage numbers will go up. According to GAMA, in 2020 there will be 120,000 aircraft equipped if the rates keep up. So you'll still have 40% of the aircraft un-equipped at that point and you'll need to rely on TIS-B to see them, dual band or not.
It doesn't include ramp queens.
According to the FAA there are 10,000 GA aircraft that have been seen flying with ADS-B out and 220,000 active aircraft.
The AOPA agrees:
http://www.aopa.org/About-AOPA/Gene...s/Active-General-Aviation-Aircraft-in-the-U-S
There are about 300,000 registered airplanes in the USA.
You will not see the 330ES until he upgrades and until there is a certified GPS connected, so it's a lot more than $1,200. Plus, only about 10% of GA aircraft have a 330 for that upgrade path.
But, of of course the equipage numbers will go up. According to GAMA, in 2020 there will be 120,000 aircraft equipped if the rates keep up. So you'll still have 40% of the aircraft un-equipped at that point and you'll need to rely on TIS-B to see them, dual band or not.
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
That's not entirely true. ADS-B Out will also be required for aircraft operating within the 30mi Mode C veil around Class B airports, even if those aircraft never enter Class B or C airspace itself.
This hits a whole bunch of people. 95% of my flying has started, ended, or remained entirely within said Mode C veil, yet since my checkride in 2002 I have only flown into B or C airspace once. Pretty much all of that flying would still require ADS-B Out under the current rule.
That's not entirely true. ADS-B Out will also be required for aircraft operating within the 30mi Mode C veil around Class B airports, even if those aircraft never enter Class B or C airspace itself.
This hits a whole bunch of people. 95% of my flying has started, ended, or remained entirely within said Mode C veil, yet since my checkride in 2002 I have only flown into B or C airspace once. Pretty much all of that flying would still require ADS-B Out under the current rule.
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
Let me ask this differently:
1- I have a 2020 ADS-B compliant SkyView system (SV-Xponder & G430W connected directly and both with correct software).
2- I am out of ground station range.
3- Another 2020 compliant (1090ES OUT and ADS-B activated) aircraft is within distance and altitude range.
Will we see each other?
Let me ask this differently:
1- I have a 2020 ADS-B compliant SkyView system (SV-Xponder & G430W connected directly and both with correct software).
2- I am out of ground station range.
3- Another 2020 compliant (1090ES OUT and ADS-B activated) aircraft is within distance and altitude range.
Will we see each other?
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 13,226
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
You will not see that aircraft at that time, but the situation you are describing represents only 4% of aircraft today and likely less than 50% of aircraft in the future.
You will not see that aircraft at that time, but the situation you are describing represents only 4% of aircraft today and likely less than 50% of aircraft in the future.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 13,226
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
You are correct. It's just hard to constantly post the rules from 91.225:
In and Above Class B/C airspace
Within 30 miles of airports listed in appendix D (class B airports)
Above 10K feet, excepting within 2.5K of the ground, in the lower 48
Above 3K in the Gulf of Mexico within 12NM of the coast
The point is, there are aircraft that will not equip, and these aircraft will always be invisible on ADS-B unless you have a ground station in sight. The current estimate is 30%. The personal question for each aircraft operator is how much to pay attention to the traffic system when you know it may be missing 94%, 60%, or 30% of traffic.
You are correct. It's just hard to constantly post the rules from 91.225:
In and Above Class B/C airspace
Within 30 miles of airports listed in appendix D (class B airports)
Above 10K feet, excepting within 2.5K of the ground, in the lower 48
Above 3K in the Gulf of Mexico within 12NM of the coast
The point is, there are aircraft that will not equip, and these aircraft will always be invisible on ADS-B unless you have a ground station in sight. The current estimate is 30%. The personal question for each aircraft operator is how much to pay attention to the traffic system when you know it may be missing 94%, 60%, or 30% of traffic.
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
Ahh, now I got that part.
Is this a SkyView capability thing, or a 1090ES "system" capability thing? IOW Could the other person (non SkyView) see me? Not worried about percent equipped aircraft right now, just system capabilities.
Ahh, now I got that part.
Is this a SkyView capability thing, or a 1090ES "system" capability thing? IOW Could the other person (non SkyView) see me? Not worried about percent equipped aircraft right now, just system capabilities.
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
Actually, here is my revised question then:
1- I have a 2020 ADS-B compliant SkyView system (SV-Xponder & G430W connected directly and both with correct software).
2- I am out of ground station range.
3- Another identical airplane that is Skyview equipped with SV transponder and ADS-B is within distance and range.
Will we see each other?
IE, in a SV system, what method is used to wake up the ground station? 1090 ES or 978 UAT? I probably misunderstood how even the SV system works. For the answer above to be YES, somehow both frequencies must be used then?
Thanks for the detailed info. Just trying to understand the system!
I think the bottom line is this line. All properly equipped ADS-B OUT systems are plane to plane visible even without a ground station.
Let me ask this differently:
1- I have a 2020 ADS-B compliant SkyView system (SV-Xponder & G430W connected directly and both with correct software).
2- I am out of ground station range.
3- Another 2020 compliant (1090ES OUT and ADS-B activated) aircraft is within distance and altitude range.
Will we see each other?
Actually, here is my revised question then:
1- I have a 2020 ADS-B compliant SkyView system (SV-Xponder & G430W connected directly and both with correct software).
2- I am out of ground station range.
3- Another identical airplane that is Skyview equipped with SV transponder and ADS-B is within distance and range.
Will we see each other?
IE, in a SV system, what method is used to wake up the ground station? 1090 ES or 978 UAT? I probably misunderstood how even the SV system works. For the answer above to be YES, somehow both frequencies must be used then?
Thanks for the detailed info. Just trying to understand the system!
I think the bottom line is this line. All properly equipped ADS-B OUT systems are plane to plane visible even without a ground station.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 13,226
In the situation you describe, this is a SkyView hardware limitation. If you had a dual band ADS-B receiver, you could see the other ADS-B out aircraft when not in ground station range. But not aircraft without ADS-B Out (standard Mode-C and Mode-S transponders are not ADS-B out).
The SkyView aircraft is ADS-B out on 1090, so if another aircraft has ADS-B in on 1090 they can see you.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 13,226
Re: Duel Band ADS-B
This question is based on NOT being in ground station range. Thus, "waking up" the ground station is not relevant. There's no ground station to be woken up.
In the particular case you list above, you will not see the other SkyView aircraft. SkyView is ADS-B out on 1090 and in on 978 so it needs the ground station to convert.
Now, if you do have a ground station, what wakes up the ground station is your ADS-B OUT, transponder or UAT based. In Dynon's system, the transponder output wakes up a ground station if it's in range. This tells the ground station that you exist, where you are, and what kind of equipment you have. The ground station then sends you all aircraft you can't see directly (Non-ADS-B aircraft and ADS-B aircraft on a different frequency). It knows what you can and can't see directly because your ADS-B out tells it what kind of ADS-B IN you have.
Let's describe 3 situations, for a few different equipment configurations:
For an aircraft equipped with SkyView and our transponder. The GPS on board does not matter:
A) No ground station in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT on the UAT frequency (978 MHz)
B) Ground station in range, but no FAA radar in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT. They can be on either frequency.
C) Ground station in range, and FAA radar in range: You will see all aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT or a transponder.
For an aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT and dual-band ADS-B IN
A) No ground station in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT. ADS-B OUT is NOT a Mode-S Transponder unless it is also an ES transponder. This means most airliners and GA aircraft are not ADS-B OUT.
B) Ground station in range, but no FAA radar in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT.
C) Ground station in range, and FAA radar in range: You will see all aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT or a transponder.
For an aircraft NOT equipped with ADS-B OUT but with dual-band ADS-B IN
A) No ground station in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT.
B) Ground station in range, but no FAA radar in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT.
C) Ground station in range, and FAA radar in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT. You may see other traffic sporadically as other ADS-B OUT aircraft wake up the ground stations, but this is highly unreliable and can lead to a false sense of coverage.
This question is based on NOT being in ground station range. Thus, "waking up" the ground station is not relevant. There's no ground station to be woken up.
In the particular case you list above, you will not see the other SkyView aircraft. SkyView is ADS-B out on 1090 and in on 978 so it needs the ground station to convert.
Now, if you do have a ground station, what wakes up the ground station is your ADS-B OUT, transponder or UAT based. In Dynon's system, the transponder output wakes up a ground station if it's in range. This tells the ground station that you exist, where you are, and what kind of equipment you have. The ground station then sends you all aircraft you can't see directly (Non-ADS-B aircraft and ADS-B aircraft on a different frequency). It knows what you can and can't see directly because your ADS-B out tells it what kind of ADS-B IN you have.
Let's describe 3 situations, for a few different equipment configurations:
For an aircraft equipped with SkyView and our transponder. The GPS on board does not matter:
A) No ground station in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT on the UAT frequency (978 MHz)
B) Ground station in range, but no FAA radar in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT. They can be on either frequency.
C) Ground station in range, and FAA radar in range: You will see all aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT or a transponder.
For an aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT and dual-band ADS-B IN
A) No ground station in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT. ADS-B OUT is NOT a Mode-S Transponder unless it is also an ES transponder. This means most airliners and GA aircraft are not ADS-B OUT.
B) Ground station in range, but no FAA radar in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT.
C) Ground station in range, and FAA radar in range: You will see all aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT or a transponder.
For an aircraft NOT equipped with ADS-B OUT but with dual-band ADS-B IN
A) No ground station in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT.
B) Ground station in range, but no FAA radar in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT.
C) Ground station in range, and FAA radar in range: You will see only aircraft equipped with ADS-B OUT. You may see other traffic sporadically as other ADS-B OUT aircraft wake up the ground stations, but this is highly unreliable and can lead to a false sense of coverage.
I'm more confused then ever. I thought 978UAT was completely separate from the 1090ES. I also thought the SV transponder received on 1030mhz and transmitted on 1090mhz.
If there an advantage for a SV system with the SV-XPNDR-261 transponder to also have a SV-ADSB-470?
If there an advantage for a SV system with the SV-XPNDR-261 transponder to also have a SV-ADSB-470?