Extended Runways Feedback

[jc2da]

I dont know what it is about the extended runways feature. Every since it was added, it has caused me more confusion than it should. I know I have liked seeing extended runways on the Ipad for a while, without problem. Thus, i can only guess it must be because of the way it is implemented on Skyview. Here is a thought.

It seems we lose the small pictorial of the runway environment. See photo below. It would be great if somehow the pictorial could be retained with extended runways. Right now, it seems we lose it.

Being able to identify the end of runways is a big deal, especially at night. However, I think we lose that ability with the feature turned on.

The left is at zoom level 5 mi. The right at 3 mi. Typical settings for me when in the pattern.

I could only find this one screengrab of my local field. However, it gets much worse at larger airports with more runways.

Anybody else feel the same way?

 

[jc2da]

Actually, i found a couple other screenshots that shows the Runway pictorial is retained along with extended runways. However, maybe the pictorial could be enhanced better. I think the extended runways, at the very least, obscures or hides the runway pictorial adding to my confusion when it is on.

In the screengrab below, the zoom level is way down to 1.2nm. Normally, i probably zoom down to 3mi or 5 mi when in the pattern.

In the previous screengrab in the original post, those are at zoom levels 5 and 3.

 

[swatson999]

That looks to me like you have the Weather layer turned on in the Map Layers menu...so airports are showing up as blue, green, etc., depending on their current VFR/MVFR/IFR/LIFR status.

Try turning it off...

 

[William_Ince]

That looks to me like you have the Weather layer turned on in the Map Layers menu...so airports are showing up as blue, green, etc., depending on their current VFR/MVFR/IFR/LIFR status.

Try turning it off...

Nice catch!

 

[jc2da]

Yes, i keep the WX layer on. However, not sure how much that would help. It just gets replaced by another airport symbol, it looks like.

 

[swatson999]

I'm not sure what you're asking for...do you have an example of the "small pictorial" you're talking about?

Even in your example just now, isn't there a line indicating the runway direction within the pink symbol (much like a sectional chart)?

 

[jc2da]

I'm not sure what you're asking for...do you have an example of the "small pictorial" you're talking about? 

Even in your example just now, isn't there a line indicating the runway direction within the pink symbol (much like a sectional chart)?

In this picture, it is a black line depicting the runway running horizontally.

Strangely, for the same airport with the WX layer ON, the darker line turns to a whiter line, in between the 2 runway extensions.

For VGT, when i zoom into the picture, it is a white line with kind of a darker zipper in the middle running top left to bottom right, depicting the 2 parallel runways 30L and 30R.

Strangely, that is 3 different ways runways are depicted in Skyview. Not sure why so many.

 

[swatson999]

Well, you can color me confused. I don't understand what the issue is, nor even precisely what you're expecting (or think you saw in the past that isn't there now).

Maybe someone else can help here...

 

[jc2da]

Basically, what i ask is this. If on downwind on a dark night, and you cannot identify the end of the runway visually (no REILs or the lights are too dim), how do you know when to turn base? This is all VFR on a clear but dark night.

Yes, I can toggle to the airport diagram chart, but what if it is not available, etc. Why not use the runway depiction on the nice map, but something about the colors or the depiction just is not easy for me to use.

Steve, at least you replied and tried to understand my question. I appreciate that. I figure we are a community with a common self-interest to help improve our flying and our tools.

Jae

 

[jc2da]

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=148160

There is an entire thread on VAF with the subject, "Garmin® adds visual approach guidance to the GTN™ 650/750". Granted, this is a feature on their certified IFR gps. However, the map shows the actual airport diagram when you zoom in far enough on their G3x Touch MFD.

Thus, with the G3x Touch, the answer is to zoom in quite far, but you will automatically get the airport diagram. This is far more than the runway endpoints, that i was asking for. Just another solution implemented by Garmin.

I am pretty sure I can get what I want with Skyview, doing the same thing. I just need to remind myself to zoom in to see the runway depictions as well. However, it seems i am constantly in a tug of war zooming in and out in and out.

I really wish I could remove those annoying INFO fields quickly with a declutter button of some sort. I will have to try removing the INFO fields in the settings menu and live without them. Skyview HDX moved all the INFO fields off the map into their own dedicated column.

 

[jc2da]

One last thought about popping up the airport diagram. The problem is that if you are in track-up view, the airport diagram would switch to north-up view. Not sure i would like that while in the pattern. Not sure how G3x Touch handles that either. Unfortunately, their example scenario in the photo above, is an idealized simple case where track-up and north-up happen to be exactly the same.

 

[swatson999]

Basically, what i ask is this. If on downwind on a dark night, and you cannot identify the end of the runway visually (no REILs or the lights are too dim), how do you know when to turn base? This is all VFR on a clear but dark night.

Well, if you can't *see* the runway and identify when to turn base, but must instead rely on your EFIS and its extended runways or whatever to determine that, it seems to me you are *no longer flying VFR*, but instead are now "flying by reference to instruments in the flight deck, and navigation is accomplished by reference to electronic signals.".

In other words, you are now flying IFR...

Which basically means, if you can't find the runway and turn to final by looking outside and seeing it, but need the instruments on board to do so, you might ought to not be there in the first place...

 

[jc2da]

Basically, what i ask is this. If on downwind on a dark night, and you cannot identify the end of the runway visually (no REILs or the lights are too dim), how do you know when to turn base? This is all VFR on a clear but dark night.

Well, if you can't *see* the runway and identify when to turn base, but must instead rely on your EFIS and its extended runways or whatever to determine that, it seems to me you are *no longer flying VFR*, but instead are now "flying by reference to instruments in the flight deck, and navigation is accomplished by reference to electronic signals.".

In other words, you are now flying IFR...

Which basically means, if you can't find the runway and turn to final by looking outside and seeing it, but need the instruments on board to do so, you might ought to not be there in the first place...

No. This is perfectly clear VFR. Just having trouble identifying the runways. I have the same issue during broad daylight flying into some unfamiliar airports as well. Is this IFR, absolutely not. I would hope you can understand the difference.

Another example. Clearly, not an IMC or IFR issue. I hope you understand the difference.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-harrison-ford-plane-video-20170222-story.html

The issue is about effectively using the tools at our disposal, or improving the tools at our disposal to aid our less than perfect piloting skills sometimes.

It seems me and Harrison Ford, are the only two pilots who seem to have this issue. Never thought we would have something in common!

 

[swatson999]

Basically, what i ask is this. If on downwind on a dark night, and you cannot identify the end of the runway visually (no REILs or the lights are too dim), how do you know when to turn base? This is all VFR on a clear but dark night.

Well, if you can't *see* the runway and identify when to turn base, but must instead rely on your EFIS and its extended runways or whatever to determine that, it seems to me you are *no longer flying VFR*, but instead are now "flying by reference to instruments in the flight deck, and navigation is accomplished by reference to electronic signals.".

In other words, you are now flying IFR...

Which basically means, if you can't find the runway and turn to final by looking outside and seeing it, but need the instruments on board to do so, you might ought to not be there in the first place...

No. This is perfectly clear VFR. Just having trouble identifying the runways. I have the same issue during broad daylight flying into some unfamiliar airports as well. Is this IFR, absolutely not. I would hope you can understand the difference.

Another example. Clearly, not an IMC or IFR issue. I hope you understand the difference.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-harrison-ford-plane-video-20170222-story.html

The issue is about effectively using the tools at our disposal, or improving the tools at our disposal to aid our less than perfect piloting skills sometimes.

It seems me and Harrison Ford, are the only two pilots who seem to have this issue. Never thought we would have something in common!

Wellllll...okay, partner. Mr. Ford can't seem to see the big numbers right there on the actual runwaybasically right in front of him, so I'd say he has a bigger issue than not being able to see the runway on a dark night, but that's kinda neither here nor there...

But I guess I still don't understand what it is you're asking for that you think has gone away on the Skyview...turn off the weather layer, which you don't need since you're VFR (right?), and you get the same airport icons you've always gotten, complete with runway depictions, exactly like you'd get with a sectional (in fact, change from Terrain data to Sectional, and you'll see for yourself).

I don't see how the extended runway centerlines has robbed you of that....

 

[swatson999]

If on downwind on a dark night, and you cannot identify the end of the runway visually (no REILs or the lights are too dim), how do you know when to turn base? This is all VFR on a clear but dark night.

Just to add...the *weather* need not be IMC for one to be in IFR conditions. A very dark night can also be IFR conditions.

And the difference here is...during day VFR, you're not likely to smack into something between you and the invisible airport you're looking for. Dark night where you can't find the runway? Different story...whether you have some sort of moving map of the runways or not.

 

[William_Ince]

. . . "If on downwind on a dark night, and you cannot identify the end of the runway visually (no REILs or the lights are too dim), how do you know when to turn base? This is all VFR on a clear but dark night.

Turn up the runway lights! One way or another, make them brighter.

 

[swatson999]

. . . "If on downwind on a dark night, and you cannot identify the end of the runway visually (no REILs or the lights are too dim), how do you know when to turn base? This is all VFR on a clear but dark night.

Turn up the runway lights! One way or another, make them brighter.

I get what he's saying...I just think he's focused on a very tiny aspect and trying to use it to (incorrectly) solve his problem. He's trying to use the EFIS runway depiction to plan out his pattern, and that just strikes me as asking too much of a tiny graphic on a screen, while sort of abdicating the role of the PIC.

 

[preid]

If on downwind on a dark night, and you cannot identify the end of the runway visually (no REILs or the lights are too dim), how do you know when to turn base? This is all VFR on a clear but dark night.

Just to add...the *weather* need not be IMC for one to be in IFR conditions.  A very dark night can also be IFR conditions.

And the difference here is...during day VFR, you're not likely to smack into something between you and the invisible airport you're looking for.  Dark night where you can't find the runway?  Different story...whether you have some sort of moving map of the runways or not.

I tend to disagree here. It was mentioned before that we have tools at our disposal and that is right on. I flew into the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains one dark night, it was pitch black and 7 clicks didn't show the runway, yes, I was flying referencing my skyview and I used the moving map to avoid terrain, I than lined up on the extended runway line and saw the runway, maybe back in my military days flying helos with steam gauges it would have been IFR, but I can certainly fly VFR into a sunset behind my airport runway blinded by the light or in pitch dark conditions in mountainous conditions using the moving map. I see your point, it's not visual, per se, but here is where I disagree, it can completely be flown using the PFD and moving map, and be done safely. If I considered every landing at night or during sunset "IFR" I would never fly
To address the original question on runways, I don't ever recall seeing those pictures, Where I am, under class B, same situation as original poster, it's hard to find the runway in the middle of very condensed buildings and area unless I use moving map to get to area, after that it's all visual. I see the point of the runways picture showing the runway alignment, I gather it's like the airport diagram superimposed over moving map perhaps? Makes for much easier alignment, I just don't fly this way to benefit from that feature.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

You are not allowed to fly by instruments unless you are instrument rated. If you can't safely fly visually without instruments then you must not fly in those conditions.

That said, wouldn't synthetic vision help you when near the airport a lot more than trying to see the runway diagram on the map? Extended runways are for setting yourself up for long finals and whatnot.

 

[swatson999]

I flew into the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains one dark night, it was pitch black and 7 clicks didn't show the runway, yes, I was flying referencing my skyview and I used the moving map to avoid terrain, I than lined up on the extended runway line and saw the runway, maybe back in my military days flying helos with steam gauges it would have been IFR, but I can certainly fly VFR into a sunset behind my airport runway blinded by the light or in pitch dark conditions in mountainous conditions using the moving map. I see your point, it's not visual, per se, but here is where I disagree, it can completely be flown using the PFD and moving map, and be done safely. If I considered every landing at night or during sunset "IFR"  I would never fly

I'm sorry...you had to use the PFD and the moving map to navigate to and find the airport, and avoid terrain, ,and that's not IFR?

In my book, that's IFR.  Caveating it with "well, it's not visual *per se*" doesn't really change that.  There's no "per se"  about it.  You're either flying in VFR conditions, or you're not.  And if you are flying and navigating by reference to instruments, be they steam gauges or EFIs, then you're flying IFR.

I've been in the flying-into-the-sun situation, as well...difference there is, just look to the side or behind you and it's clear as a bell (or at least, better visibility, enough to be VFR), so I'm not flying with reference to instruments.  This is a bit of a red herring here, though.

The OP can't find his runway, and is trying to use the runway diagram on the moving map to figure out when to turn base...so he's likely in the pattern, or near it, at pattern altitude, and somewhat lost, relying on the tiny depiction of the airport to help him out.  I, as a pilot potentially sharing the pattern with him, don't want him doing that.  I want him to either leave the pattern and sort himself out before he goes blundering around the airspace, possibly turning base and final in all the wrong places at the wrong times and conflicting with other traffic, or look outside, find the airport and runway, and follow standard procedures...not looking at his map and zooming in and out and trying to use THAT to figure out where in the pattern he is...