Holds Question For You IFR Guys

[rfazio1951]

I am training for my IFR rating and was flying holds this week. I have a Skyview and Garmin 430W. My instructor wants me to hand fly. I'm cheating and using the flight director. I'm thinking this may work but haven't tried it yet and figured I would ask here first. Say I'm instructed to hold on the 090 radial of vor CCC. Forgetting the entry and all that stuff, say I'm established in the hold. I'm inbound on the radial, in NAV mode with the course set to 270, and just crossed the VOR. I get the flip to/from and start the right turn to 090 outbound. If I have the track bug on 090 already and wait till I'm outbound at 090 and hit TRK on the autopilot. Will she track straight out 090 from that point? Then, can I time a minute and turn right heading for the radial and hit NAV and track straight back in on the radial, cross the VOR and turn and hit TRK again? I am thinking this will work, anyone try this? I'm thinking this would take into account wind and fly a nice hold kind of automatically.

 

[dlloyd]

Sounds like it will work good. I'm going to try it next time out practicing. I would encourage you to hand fly as much as possible, polish those skills.

 

[rfazio1951]

I'm hand flying, but like having that flight director helping. Thanks for responding. What I am unsure of is how the TRK actually works. I'm used to using it by placing the line on the point I want to navigate to on the map and having it fly there. I don't think of it as a track course. If I set the track then fly off it, and turn the autopilot on it will try to get back on that track line, correct. But if you set the track and fly some distance off course and then set TRK does it track that direction from the point that you hit TRK? I hope I'm explaining what I mean.

 

[krw5927]

Yes that is precisely the difference between "course" and "track". Track doesn't care where you were a second ago. It puts you on the magnetic track over the ground from where you are now.

If you track outbound using the flight director or AP, on 090 using "track" mode, then turn inbound and select "nav", it'll work great as long as the magenta line on the CDI (HSI) is centered at the time you push "nav" on the AP. If the CDI is slightly off course, it will wiggle you around to center the course, then turn inbound. It will be more maneuvering while in the hold, if that makes sense, but the end result will be the same.

 

[carlp101]

Guys,

Excuse my ignorance, but aren't your turns supposed to be rate one turns so you follow a defined racetrack pattern? I believe the AP turn rate is governed by a chosen value for max bank angle in set-up. As a result, using the method you've defined may cause your reciprocal leg to be closer to the previous leg than it's supposed to be.

I'm not being an anorak. I'd just like to know if this is acceptable as I'm planning to train for my instrument rating.

All the best.
Carl

 

[Carl_Froehlich]

Assuming your autopilot is set up correctly and you are not going too slow, it will give you standard rate turns.

What it will not do is compensate for a cross wind. That is up to you. You can do simple stuff like have the AP on track mode a little left or right to compensate - but I'll let you hammer that out with your instructor.

Carl

 

[KRviator]

You don't even need to wait until you're established on the outbound leg to enable TRK. If you fly the inbound course in Nav, have your TRK bug set to 080 you can simply switch Roll mode from NAV to TRK. Once you've turned a few degrees, adjust the TRK bug to 090.

The reason for not having it set on 090 initially is to avoid the AP turning left to intercept the track. It will always choose the shortest way to turn to get to your bugged track. Eg, ifit was a left turning pattern, have your TRK bug on 100.

 

[swatson999]

If you're using the AP and a 430W for course guidance, won't it fly the hold just fine all by itself while in NAV mode?

It's been a while since I did a hold, but I seem to recall setting one up as part of an approach and just turning the AP on, setting it to NAV, and sitting back to watch it do the hold all by itself.

Maybe I'm missing something here...

 

[rfazio1951]

     That does work if your approach has a hold in it. What I was talking about is when you are asked by ATC to hold at a point on a radial having nothing to do with an approach. My instructor is having me hold on a VOR at a certain radial. Each time I'm heading back into the vortac he gives me a new radial. That you are not doing with the 430. Though, I think the 650 is capable of doing it.

    The problem I am having is the AP and or the FD does not make the change from NAV to TRK instantly. When I am inbound and pass over the vortac I start the turn to the right and then wait till i am about 180 degrees outbound and hit TRK. The FD takes time to come around to the new heading. I would think it would instantly track out.  Also when turning back in once I start the turn I thought I could just hit NAV and it would turn back in toward the vortac. But it slowly comes around. Too slow. Maybe my technec is wrong or maybe my autopilot setup is not correct.

 

[carlp101]

Assuming your autopilot is set up correctly and you are not going too slow, it will give you standard rate turns.

What it will not do is compensate for a cross wind.  That is up to you.  You can do simple stuff like have the AP on track mode a little left or right to compensate - but I'll let you hammer that out with your instructor.

Carl

What do you mean by "Set-up correctly" Carl? My AP rolls over to 30 degrees (the default max) whilst performing a balanced turn. Therefore it's a much tighter turn than rate one. How do you have your's set-up?

Thanks
Carl

 

[skysailor]

Simply on the subject of IFR flight instruction, you may need to discuss this with your CFI. I would not allow my students to use flight directors until they passed the instrument checkride. Flight directors show you how the computer would have the servos fly the plane if they were engaged. You need this knowledge and be able to demonstrate this skill without relying on the Skyview to be a safe instrument pilot.

 

[Carl_Froehlich]

Assuming your autopilot is set up correctly and you are not going too slow, it will give you standard rate turns.

What it will not do is compensate for a cross wind.  That is up to you.  You can do simple stuff like have the AP on track mode a little left or right to compensate - but I'll let you hammer that out with your instructor.

Carl

What do you mean by "Set-up correctly" Carl? My AP rolls over to 30 degrees (the default max) whilst performing a balanced turn. Therefore it's a much tighter turn than rate one. How do you have your's set-up?

Thanks
Carl

The autopilot should use whatever bank needed to achieve a standard rate turn - up to your max setting. Are you saying you don't get a standard turn even with the 30 degree max setting?

Carl

 

[paul330]

Rate One is approximately first 2 digits of airspeed plus 7. So at (typically) 100kts, it's 17 degrees. 30 degree is going to be a much tighter turn than rate one......