IFR certification

DougN

New Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
29
Location
Florida, US; Zodiac 601 XL
Has anyone actually gone through the process of getting their Dynon EFIS + other electronics (e.g. SL30, IFR GPS) certified for IFR flight? If so, what is in your panel, and what were the sticking points?

For example, since an A1-certified GPS must have certain things annunciated, and since the "approved" annunciators tend to include a button for NAV/GPS, this is in conflict with using the Dynon (one uses the NAVSRC button to choose what is showing on the EFIS's HSI). How did you resolve this? Also, was the Dynon HSI acceptable as an external CDI/HSI for the SL30 and GPS? Thanks.
 

Ken_Kopp

New Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
1,472
Location
Wellington Aero Club (FD38) FL
DougN - Im no lawyer but I can't find anything in the FARs that suggest an IFR certification exists? I've certainly never seen a log book entry or form that states "This aircraft is certified for IFR flight".

As long as you have a valid transponder check and pitot static system check along with the PART 91 minimum equipment listed for IFR flight...you are CERTIFIED. My avionics shop had no problem with my dynon EFIS in and conducted the checks and signed them off.

My opinion only

Ken
 

DBRV10

Active Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
926
Location
Brisbane, Qld. Australia
Disclaimer.... I am in Oztralia and we are a bit different down here.....and weird too at times! ;D

Our rules are pretty much the same as yours, sometimes even tighter, but overall the same. I will post here some interesting words that cut through the BS, and this applies to Australia.

Basically you need altimetry and so forth tested but if you are happy a set of fluffy dice hanging from your headset holder is good enough as an Artificial Horizon.....good luck to you!

I am using the following.
D100/D180 HS34 and AP74 (AP76 when Nick and the boys release it) and servo's
Garmin GNS530W, GMA340, SL40, GTX327 with a TSO encoder (Oz).
Also a TSO Altimeter
A Vans supplier ASI just for the heck of it.

Now I will post this bit seperately, but this afternoon we tested all the Dynon gear on his bench and it was 100% spot on all the way 50-200 knots and to 10,000 feet (got lazy and gave up at 10K).

So..... replicate that and see how you go!
4525920200a10603202236l.jpg


Ok here goes the cut and paste. Even if not law in your case, it may be worth following some items like assigned altitude display.

Regulations.
AC 21.4(2) says that an SAAA approved person can issue a special airworthines certificate for operations with any limitations thought prudent. These can be significant limitations for the life of the aircraft such as; not allowed in controlled airspace, congested airspace, built-up areas.

Expect your flight test period to be for VFR ops by day only. At the end of a successful test period your AP may assess the aircraft for VFR by day, NVFR or IFR ops according to the equipment fit.
After your Special Certificate of Airworthines is issued you may fly IFR if properly equipped. The IFR requirements apply according to the type of operation (private, charter, RPT) and are the same regardless of the category of aircraft certification. Published requirements are listed in the rest of this document.
Equipment Standards
CAO 108.34 and CAO 108.32 detail the installation and testing standards for IFR equipment.
The SAAA recommends that you consider the following:
a. Your altimeter/transponder combination is critical to collision avoidance and must be tested, by properly calibrated test equipment, by a competent operator. Accordingly we strongly recommend you consider at TSO compliant altimeter and transponder and get an aviation professional to test it for you. Compulsory instrument and radio Airworthiness Directives are listed towards the end of this document.
b. Your GPS must be TSO – compliant. There is no choice in the matter.
c. Communication radios and radio navigation systems TSO are advisory, but reduce the risk of inadequate performance. Just about all new radios are TSO compliant and we recommend them to you. Any testing of equipment should by properly calibrated test equipment that is operated by a properly qualified test person.
d. Flight instruments (except altimeter – as discussed above) do not have to meet TSO requirements but do have to work to the manufacturers specifications.
e. Your equipment must not only work itself, but in combination with all other equipment. Interference/cross talk between equipment should not be evident at any stage of flight.
See see references below for test requirements.

VFR Instruments CAO 20.18 Appdx I

ASI
Altimeter, with milibar scale.
Compass, direct reading, or remote with standby direct reading compass, or alternate power source for the remote unit.
Clock or wrist watch.
Turn and slip indicator (optional for private VFR by day, required by night).
OAT.
IFR Instruments CAO 20.18 Appdx IV & V

VFR instruments plus:
Assigned Altitude indicator (above 15000 an altitude alerting system is required).
Pitot heat protection for ASI.
Clock indicating down to seconds.
VSI
AH
Heading indicator (DG or equivalent).
Turn & slip, or just a slip indicator if a second AH is fitted.
A means of indicating the power supply to the gyros is satisfactory (eg. vacuum gauge or voltage warning).
Static port, either balanced flush pair or main and alternate.
Duplicated or split sources of power for AH, DG, turn and slip.
Instrument lights, with an alternate source, plus dimmer.
Minimum of one landing light.
Map light.
Passenger compartment light.
External lights iaw CAR 177 & CAR196.
Torch for each crew member.

Note that none of these instruments need to be an approved item for private IFR. Charter and above do need some approved instruments. Hence builders are largely free to choose the instruments (including efis) that they like, however once installed they are to be maintained to AD/INST/9, amendments 5 and 6. This AD is effectively the accuracy standard for IFR compliant instruments. Note that the accuracy requirement for an IFR altimeter is stringent.


Navigation Systems

GPS See AIP Gen section 1.5. GPS for IFR use must comply with TSO. A GPS compliant with TSO C129a2 can be used for enroute and terminal area navigation. C129a1 can conduct non-precision approaches. However to take advantage of lower weather minima a VOR or ADF need to be onboard and at the destination. See the AIP for details of operational and weather requirements for destinations and alternate airports with and without ground aids.

GPS compliant with the new TSO C146a are WAAS upgradeable and are expected to be approved for sole means of navigation for enroute navigation and also (in future) for precision approaches. CASA staff have confirmed that the US WAAS correction signal does cover Australia, and they will progressively introduce precision GPS approaches in the future.

Transponder For entry into controlled airspace, and VFR aircraft transiting Class E airspace, a transponder is required. Transponder and altimeter require a system test every two years. See AD/RAD/43 and also AD/RAD/47. These two AD's are mandatory and should only be completed by a qualified aviation professional who has the necessary calibrated test equipment. Expect your AP to have a strong interest in your transponder/altimeter test results.

VOR/ADF/DME CAO 108.34 lays down airborne radio system performance accuracy standards. Most ADF and VOR equipment meet TSOs. Some older equipment does not. If you can identify another aircraft carrying your chosen equipment then a refusal by the AP is unlikely. Even if you install TSO equipment conducting the flight tests in CAO 108.34 is a sensible way to gain confidence in your installation.

Communications See CAO 108.34 for radio performance standards. For IFR flights you need sufficient radios to maintain continuous two way communications. Its hard to find a VHF that does not comply with TSOs.

Other Australian references;
AD/GEN/7 ASI and Altimeters markings
AD/GEN/39 Generator warnings.
AD/INST/9 Instrument test requirements/ 2 yearly altimeter test, other instruments 3 yearly maintenance.
CAAP 35-1 GPS installation guidelines
AD/RAD/43/47


Ok you must be bored by now and I will have set a record for the longest post here......... :eek:

Have fun!!

DB :)
 

dynonsupport

Dynon Technical Support
Staff member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
13,226
It is also our understanding that in the USA, there is no "IFR Certification" for an aircraft. As long as it has the minimum required equipment on board and the transponder/static checks are current, the aircraft is IFR legal. It's up to you to decide if the various other rules are met, such as the annunciator.

FYI, If you put the GPS close enough to the pilot, you don't need annunciators.
 

DougN

New Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
29
Location
Florida, US; Zodiac 601 XL
I thought that too (91.205); but i was "corrected" by a person in the Atlanta MIDO. I certainly won't have this exactly right, but apparently every manufacturer of equipment on your airplane gets a vote on whether the airplane is actually "approved" for IFR flight: the engine manufacturer gets to say whether their engine is IFR approved, the airframe mgr gets to say, and the avionics mgr gets to say.

The challenge gets to be whether an avionics mgr states their equipment is ok for IFR. Most use the TSOs to make their statement. And, every installation is unique.

Take for example a Garmin 430. Garmin doesn't require an annunciator for them to state their unit is IFR without an annunciator because the OBS mode, approach mode, and the annunciation of the modes is handled on the unit itself. Not true for their 155XL. This unit needs the annunciator if it is going to be used for IFR GPS non-precision approaches.

Suppose you land in IFR conditions, then are ramp checked; I'm told (again MIDO) that the inspector would (could) cite you if you couldn't show the paperwork that shows the airplane is IFR certified. And, this was beyond the VOR/baro stuff. It included a POH appendix, specific for the airplane, which described how one uses the avionics present.

So... my question stands: has anyone actually gone through the process? Clearly an E-AB airplane has the builder as the manufacturer, but the builder can't make claims for the engine manufacturer (unlless they are the manufacturer).

Do you think anyone flies an E-AB as an IFR airplane using (say) a panel-mounted hand-held GPS as theh sole means of navigation in the IMC conditions, and makes the claim that it is legal?
 

GigG

New Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Messages
37
Location
El Dorado AR
If you are an EAA member you should be able to get to this link.

http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Equipping%20a%20Homebuilt%20for%20IFR%20operations.html?
 

DougN

New Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
29
Location
Florida, US; Zodiac 601 XL
Thank you; but you're making my point.

"...now sport GPS equipment in their instrument panel. Some of these units are approved for IFR operations, and the FAA has recently updated their guidance on how to approve the installation of GPS equipment in individual aircraft...."


"...However, if the equipment is not built under a TSO authorization, it is up to the owner/operator to verify and document that the equipment performs within the required specifications. It is also the owner or operator's responsibility to document the necessary flight-test data showing that the installation performs within the required accuracy parameters..."

Among the requirements for some GPSs to be "approved" is the requirement to have the GPS connected to a CDI/HSI.

My question remains: has anyone done it?
 

vinhvinh

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
32
This Is my IFR panel ( rv-7a) ( the picture of the panel should be attach)
Sl-30, Gnc 300xl, With the annunciator AK950, Trutrak AP, EFIS d120 , hs 34, GI 106 couple with the GPS as a secondary display ( the sl30 is not connect with the CDI-GS) , The HS 34 is connect to the GPS with ARINC and the GPS is connect to the CDI by the annunciator with the resolver connection. So when I push the hold on the annunciator, The Gps keep the waypoint and use it like a VOR. When i twist the resolver on the cdi, the arrow on the hsi of the efis turn at the same time but i can't do the opposite.
I use the CDI as a secondary indicator in case of a efis failure.
I have a display on the sl30 if the i have an efis failure. If it's just a dysplay failure, I can put it on my ems screen. The other instrument ( turn coordinator, asi, altimeter and compass can be use as a partial panel ( hope i will never have to)
I have a 496 for weather ( a because it's more fun to use than the 300xl and it have a 8 hre back up battery in case of electrical failure and have a partial pael to. )
I will pass my IFR in my plane next week. My setup work very well

I certified my plane last june. I've ask a avionic shop to do the sl30 and gps installation to have the official paper and I did the transponder, static test and altimeter calibration in a avionic shop too. I've send the paper to Transport canada and they send me back my ifr certification. By the way, my dynon altimeter was way batter than my other on the test from 0 to 18000 feet.

wish me luck for my flight test
Lan Vin Do
RV-7a
NB canada
 

Attachments

  • ifr3.jpg
    ifr3.jpg
    624.9 KB · Views: 197

vinhvinh

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
32
I havent hook the sl-30 to the CDI because i woul have to use the resolver connection . My sl- 30 is connect by serial connection as in the manual of dynon to the hs 34. The Sl-30 don't output the resolver type info at the same time as serial . In the setup of the sl-30, you have to choose between resolver or serial and you have to turn off the sl-30, enter the setup menu, turn on the sl-30 again. So i didn't connect it to the annunciator and cdi because you woult have to push the NAV GPS switch, turn off the sl-30 , make the setup, turn it on again. Not simple.
I attach my electrical plan. I don't know if it will show well
 

Attachments

  • SHEMA_ELECTRIQUE.doc
    49 KB · Views: 222

PhantomPholly

New Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
582
I havent hook the sl-30 to the CDI because i woul have to use the resolver connection . My sl- 30 is connect by serial connection as in the manual of dynon to the hs 34. The Sl-30 don't output the resolver type info at the same time as serial .  In the setup of the sl-30, you have to choose between resolver or  serial and you have to turn off the sl-30, enter the setup menu, turn on the sl-30 again. So i didn't connect it to the annunciator and cdi because you woult have to push the NAV GPS switch, turn off the sl-30 , make the setup, turn it on again. Not simple.
I attach my electrical plan. I don't know if it will show well

I'm not a lawyer either; but I think the EFIS handles the "annunciator" function as well from the serial connection.
 

vinhvinh

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
32
Yes the efis can do the annunciator fonction but to do an IFR approach full procedure with a procedure turn on a gos overlay, I need the hold vs auto sequencing button on the annunciator. When I push the HOLD button, It keep me the next waypoint and you can use it like a VOR. Like this, before you hit the beacon outbound, you push the button and you can do your procedure turn, the gps will not switch to ne next waypoint, when you are procedure turn inbound on final, push again on the button and it will return on auto sequencing to complete the approach. One button that cost me 700 $.

If you want to be really legal, to certified the GNC 300xl for IFR there is a section on minimum requirement. One of it is an annunciator with nav an gps annunciator( ok with d120) nav-gps switch( ok with d120) HOLD- AUTO annunciator and switch ( not ok with d120) APPROACH ACTIVE AND ARM annunciator and switch (not ok with d120) and MESSAGE annunciator ( not ok with d120) That why I have installed the annunciator
 

Brantel

New Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
463
If your someone reading this thread in the future, don't spend the money on the annunciator, make your own.  Very easy to wire up the required buttons, lights that your particular GPS requires.
 

Brantel

New Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
463
Yes but it depends on the GPS your using.  Some require more buttons and lights than others, some require momentary buttons and some require maintained.

The install manual for a particular GPS should have an appendix page showing how to wire/connect a discrete component annunciator.
 

vinhvinh

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
32
I have pass my IFR flight test in my RV-7A. Everything went very well. I am glad it's done :)

Lan VInh Do
 

MauiLvrs

New Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
28
2 Switches - 4 LEDs
1 DPDT - GPS SEQ
1 SPST (on)-offo(on) APR ARM
2 red LED
2 Green LED

4193331024_108a7b808d.jpg


4193331192_9d706f6b7e.jpg
 
Top