lean mode sky view ems

fieldbaren

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Apr 25, 2020
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While I certainly understand the concept, can anyone interpret what they see on the user guide, pages 174-175, figures 207 and 208.Specifically, please interpret what these two figures are saying! I believe fig 207 shows #1 peaked the first #4 peaked second while 2&3 haven't peaked yet. I don't get what the 1-10 and the -06 mean. my wild guess would be that #1 is now 10 degrees lean of peak and #4 is 6 degrees lean of peak. Fig 208 looks like #1 is 19 degrees lean of peak and is the first to peak and there is 0.1 of a gallon difference between the first and last cylinder to reach peak. I'm just not sure!
What I really need to know is which cylinder peaked the first and set the mixture accordingly.
 

swatson999

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Oct 6, 2010
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You're correct. But one easy way to figure it out is to just go fly, put it in Lean mode, and watch what happens as you lean the mixture. It'll all become apparent the first time you use it.
 

preid

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You are correct, however dont go crazy with this. I have matched injectors and I rarely see .1 so expect like .5 or more, if you follow the old rule of leaning to roughness than a little mixture to smooth out your going to get the best results. I have used the Dynon LOP gauge and its been pretty good to see the spread but in the end I follow the same mixture pull at 65% to get about 55% and 1380-1400F EGT, than play around a little to get best smoothness. I happen to use #1 EGT as my basis, but I have done this for 8 years so I know what it should feel like without even looking at which peak first, I actually dont even use the LOP feature anymore.
 

jnmeade

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I had GAMI injectors in my Cessna T210M. At first, I religiously went through the leaning procedure. I learned that after I knew my goals and was comfortable, the fastest and cleanest way to do the "big pull" was to watch fuel flow. I'd simply pull until the fuel flow was where I knew I wanted it and then tweak from there. GAMI has a lot of information out on running lean of peak.
 

preid

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Specifically for starters- https://gami.com/articles/bttfpart1.php

wait for D Brown from down under to respond he’s a GAMI expert, in the end learn the plane and don’t rely on finding first second or last to peak, like jnmeade I started that way and learned below 65% you can do no harm to engine, make the pull through peak and go from there.
as far as the initial question- 1-30 means that EGT was first to peak and is 30 lean of peak.
 

flyingboy

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Aussie Dave Brown is the LOP guru. He runs a course on it and well worth the learning experience. I am sure he will pop up and respond.
 

DBRV10

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While I certainly understand the concept, can anyone interpret what they see on the user guide, pages 174-175, figures 207 and 208.Specifically, please interpret what these two figures are saying! I believe fig 207 shows #1 peaked the first #4 peaked second while 2&3 haven't peaked yet. I don't get what the 1-10 and the -06 mean. my wild guess would be that #1 is now 10 degrees lean of peak and #4 is 6 degrees lean of peak. Fig 208 looks like #1 is 19 degrees lean of peak and is the first to peak and there is 0.1 of a gallon difference between the first and last cylinder to reach peak. I'm just not sure!
What I really need to know is which cylinder peaked the first and set the mixture accordingly.


You are mostly correct. However you want to know the last one to peak from the rich side (or first to peak from the lean side), and then lean from there. Lest do a virtual flight in a NA airplane.

Take off, full rich WOT/Max RPM.

Climb at Vy x 1.32 or Vz
Target EGT should typically be 1300dF EGT, every now and then lean to this target in the climb.
Level out, let the plane accelerate, then do a BMP (Big Mixture pull) That is a swift and progressive sweep, not like shutting down to ICO, but a quick and progressive sweep. As soon as it decelerates or changes tone, stop!!! You are now nicely LOP.
Let things cool off.
If you want to squeeze the optimum out of the engine, find peak from the lean side, using the first one to peak, then lean to the appropriate amount LOP. This is NOT 50dF LOP, not unless you are up around 75+% power.
Stay LOP for the cruise and the descent. Go full rich on final if you want to, but hey, most RV's have too much mumbo so a LOP go around is perfect. If you land rich, re-lean again on the ground for taxi.

What is appropriate LOP?
Simple, Best BSFC. Where is that then?
80% Power or more: 60-80dF LOP
75% power: Approx 40dF LOP
70% power: Approx 25dF LOP
65% power: Approx 10-15dF LOP.

Remember this though, if you look at a Lycoming power setting table or graph, this is rich mixture powers. So a MAP/RPM that gives you say 78% power will actually be 10% less when you are appropriately LOP. In other words if you start at 78% power and lean to the lean side of peak EGT, you will end up appropriately LOP around 71% power. So how much LOP should that be? Around 25dF of course! Serendipitously the BMP works at all MAP/RPM and the references above just always work.

The Dynon system is one of the few that actually guess the LOP/ROP state pretty well. It can get confused slightly when at high altitudes, and it might think you are around peak, when in fact you are LOP, but dont worry, these things are never perfect.

Once you know your critical cylinder (richest) just sue raw data on that one, forget using the lean find. Lean find is a great educational tool but the hysteresis and the algorithm will never be as good as you and the raw data. Lean find usually gets you slightly leaner than optimal and a few knots slower. Not harmful, just not optimised.

Last of all, 500 feet, ripping up the beach, WOT/2450 and 60-70dF LOP, breaks the rules of old wives tales. Grossly over square and well above 65% or 70% power.............and the engines LOVE IT. There is no such limit or anything on LOP or for that matter over square which DOES NOT EXIST. They are both old wives tales not matter what you have read, where you read it or what your mates think. Science rules supreme, and the data has no opinion.

Hope that helps. And thanks to the crowd for the kind words. My colleague and good friend John Deakin would be proud of y'all.
 

Corefile

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David does anything in your post change when it’s carb vs fuel injection?
 

fieldbaren

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Apr 25, 2020
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Thanks for your replies. Our aviation community rocks! While I have your attention I have another question. My RV6 has an O360 A1A ,and has a carburetor. My fuel pressure readings were too high for a carburetor fuel system, 18 to 20psi. My mechanic tested the system with an analogue gauge which ran a lot lower, around 7psi. I replaced the sensor with the new Kalvico sensor and still get the higher readings. I talked to Jeff at Dynon and he thinks the sensor could be on the wrong pins. has anyone experienced this before?
 

jakej

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Corefile - Same principles apply regardless of carby or FI, carby type just has different air/fuel issues .
David has excellent knowledge involving engine operation issues, especially fuel flow & WOT & LOP etc
 

DBRV10

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David does anything in your post change when it’s carb vs fuel injection?

Corefile and everyone else reading......Great question!

The answer : No, absolutely not!

The science of combustion is not altered one bit. In fact be it a Briggs and Stratten mower engine or a CW3350 it is all the same.

What is different on a carby is there are no injectors to alter the F/A ratio. The problem with IO engines is not uneven fuel delivery (which is what most folk believe) rather it is uneven air delivery. Hence George Braly at GAMI discovered 25 or more years ago that adjusting ever so slightly the fuel delivery to each cylinder corrected the distribution. The TCMs have a similar problem to the Lycoming except the log runner intakes actually rob fuel from the back and middle cylinders when the air pulses move, and the front cylinder becomes richest. Lycomings sump is just a random device and it can vary with MAP and RPM. The cold air sumps distribute air way better, and often need no injector tuning at all.

As for carbs, the distribution is one thing for air and another for fuel. From the carby comes an array of different fuel droplet sizes, from mist to chances lets say. Mist travels around all the bends better than bigger drops who want to fly along in a straight line. The trick with a carby is run enough heat in flight to get the carb temp at or slightly above 10dC (50dF) and now you get better fuel atomisation. Some folk find a small cracking of the throttle helps stir things up too.

If you have a fixed pitch prop.......forget using EGT, it will always be scattered. Use the laws of physics to your advantage. Fan Laws. I have done the work for you here. Simply lean in the cruise when straight and level to you reach peak RPM. Then lean for a 100-120 RPM drop. Job done. At any altitude.

I cannot stress this strongly enough, please ignore all the OWT's, mainly from flying instructors, A&P's and some of the manufacturers publications. When you understand why they even contradict themselves you will see why I say this. None of this is my opinion. Let me repeat this, my opinion matters for nothing. The data and science of combustion have no opinion. I just deliver the report! As does Deakin Braly Atkinson and Denyer.

Mike Bush and his Savvy company do a good job helping bust myths too. Mike did our APS class three times. Yes three times. I assumed this was not because he was dumb, rather he wanted to absorb himself in the learning and has since become a strong advocate for following science and data not BS from all manner of folk who have no data.

One more thing.....MUST NOT HAVE INTAKE LEAKS OR WEAK PLUGS......in any engine type!
 
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flyingboy

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Jan 11, 2010
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Team

FWIW I did the LOP course with Dave and learned more about our engines than you could possible imagine. We run the pressurised C-340A LOP and the IO-360 RV7 all the time and the engines love it. With all our Engine management systems at our finger tips we can see the CHT and EGT / TIT, fuel flow at a glance and can monitor exactly what is happening at each probe. for my money it is well worth taking the time to completely understand the science and apply the learning, you will be amazed. I often sit listening to the verandah committee at our airfield sipping coffee and talking about how running over square and shock cooling buggers engines, it is always an interesting discussion. not to take away what has been taught over the years but an opportunity to talk about how times have changed from the old single probe days to applying the reality of what is real.
Happy pulling of the red knob
Cheers Hugh
 
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