Mooney autopilot

[chriscalandro]

This thread is meant to be a small annoyance to whoever sees it reminding them that - we're waiting.

 

[chriscalandro]

OOFFFFF just saw this. TBD is a long time from the original 4th quarter 2020...............

edit WOAH WOAH WOAH. What's this about not including M20-M20E!?!?!?!?!?

Am I about to be REALLY angry?

First you told me second half 2020, I was ok with that. Then you moved it to 4th quarter 2020 - I was ok with that. Then you moved it to first quarter 2021 - I was not thrilled, but ok with that. You put the Baron in front of the Mooney - That was a bit of a kick.

Now my C will not get autopilot at all? I'm NOT ok with that. I spent a significant amount of money on this system with the promise that it would soon have autopilot. It was a major factor in my purchase. I spent the money to have the wiring and all pre-required components installed into my wings, because again, you told me you had a flying airplane that would cover my C. If this is true I feel it significantly cuts into the value of my airplane.

 

[airguy]

You made choices based upon a product that was in research and development phase. Lots of things can happen in R&D, and almost all of them will tend towards longer and more expensive. If you want certainty, then stick with what is already released. If you choose to take a risk, then be mentally prepared for delay and possible loss. That's the way the game is played.

Dynon is climbing a huge mountain with supplying this product to the market - there are going to be problems and delays, it comes with the territory. Complaining about them does nothing except encourage Dynon to say NOTHING about the R&D project until it's ready for market, like the other big players do.

I've been waiting almost a year now for the Bonanza autopilot that was "just around the corner" at the time, it's not like you are the only one affected, and they aren't picking on you. Threatening "to become REALLY angry" sounds like my six-year winding up to learn a lesson on why not to throw a fit.

 

[chriscalandro]

It’s not a delay, it’s a cancellation.
There’s a big difference.

 

[airguy]

It’s not a delay, it’s a cancellation.
There’s a big difference.

Someone at Dynon told you that the C model is not going to be covered? EVER? You mind telling us who said that?

I understand it's dropped out of this particular Mooney development, that doesn't mean it's not going to happen. The autotrim module was supposed to be included in the Cessna approval also, according to the internet experts. It wasn't. It's still happening, just not on the Cessna approval, it's wadded up in the Bonanza approval which is happening now.

Sorry you feel that the world is out to get you, that's unfortunate.

 

[Brent Dana]

See if stc group, or tru trak vizion, is coming along. Been researching, both look like they integrate with our dynon efis. My bonanza is on nobodys list. I wonder if garmin did not slow this down with the faa? I am sure dynon is a HUGE threat to their bottom line. Just sayin. But I would not doubt these companies with jillions of dollars, have big influence on govt. issues.

 

[kellym]

It’s not a delay, it’s a cancellation.
There’s a big difference.

It is likely that Dynon's decisions are market driven. Unfortunately the short-body Mooneys do not have very high market valuations anymore.
How many folks are going to drop more than 50% of the current value of their plane into a Dynon glass panel/autopilot setup? Unfortunately, the C model isn't going for a lot more than an Archer with the same engine these days. There also is the factor that short-body models of '64 and earlier model years have very different aileron control forces that would likely require separate approval. The cleanest path for Dynon is to get approvals for the F,J and K models first, then consider whether other models make any sense as to likely sales vs. R&D/certification dollars required.

 

[chriscalandro]

It is likely that Dynon's decisions are market driven. Unfortunately the short-body Mooneys do not have very high market valuations anymore.
How many folks are going to drop more than 50% of the current value of their plane into a Dynon glass panel/autopilot setup? Unfortunately, the C model isn't going for a lot more than an Archer with the same engine these days. There also is the factor that short-body models of '64 and earlier model years have very different aileron control forces that would likely require separate approval. The cleanest path for Dynon is to get approvals for the F,J and K models first, then consider whether other models make any sense as to likely sales vs. R&D/certification dollars required.

This is Dynon’s market research data.
Its not as much about how much your airplane is worth, it’s about what it adds to the airplane.

In this case nearly 50% if the interest was in the short body Mooney. The majority of that being the 65-67 models.

 

[Dynon]

So just a few clarifications here. The Mooney M20 project hasn't been discontinued. And the TBD (lack of a date) was a web update mistake. We still have our M20J, and we're certainly working towards its approval. The Mooney HAS been delayed by delays in the other projects that are ahead of it. By now, we'd expected to have the Bonanza A36 project done, but we're not quite there yet.

The approach to certifying an a model or family has always been (and continues to be): Research, as best we can without starting a project, how a model family of aircraft are related; obtain an example that we think represents the model family we'd like to approve, and use a variety of techniques to have that approval cover as many aircraft in that family as possible. That ultimate outcome of what aircraft these approvals will cover is harder to know until we're further along the project, though.

In the case of the Mooney, the M20J R&D aircraft we have represents the "mid fuselage" aircraft, and there's a high chance that we'll get those (but there's still work to do, even there). There's also a pretty good chance that the earlier short fuselage aircraft could be covered by this effort as well. But there's more risk there. The longer fuselage aircraft are pretty different than the short/mid, and we don't currently expect that we'll be able to approve those with this aircraft.

There are a variety of factors that have conspired to make our progress slower than we had hoped, and we're working hard to get back on track with all of our projects.

 

[dominikos]

the dates got updated to late 2021-2022. What confidence can we have with those dates? Feels like the process is not working...

 

[kellym]

View attachment 4448
This is Dynon’s market research data.
Its not as much about how much your airplane is worth, it’s about what it adds to the airplane.

In this case nearly 50% if the interest was in the short body Mooney. The majority of that being the 65-67 models.

You are somewhat mis-representing the data above. It shows interest from 70 short body owners. How many of those would actually pay for even a single screen with necessary accessories and autopilot is unknown( and not close to 50% of those expressing interest). By contrast there is interest from 109 intermediate body owners, who are somewhat more likely to pay the money.
You put $15 K for a Dynon system and 10K for certified GPS (plus installation) into a short body and it might add 10K to the sales value. Yes, much nicer to fly, but when you sell, at best you might get 50% back. There is a cap on what most buyers will pay for a '65-'67 Mooney no matter how nice. Ask those that own C models with full 201 mods including engine. Yes, worth more, but not close to what was spent on them.

 

[chriscalandro]

You are somewhat mis-representing the data above. It shows interest from 70 short body owners. How many of those would actually pay for even a single screen with necessary accessories and autopilot is unknown( and not close to 50% of those expressing interest). By contrast there is interest from 109 intermediate body owners, who are somewhat more likely to pay the money.
You put $15 K for a Dynon system and 10K for certified GPS (plus installation) into a short body and it might add 10K to the sales value. Yes, much nicer to fly, but when you sell, at best you might get 50% back. There is a cap on what most buyers will pay for a '65-'67 Mooney no matter how nice. Ask those that own C models with full 201 mods including engine. Yes, worth more, but not close to what was spent on them.

From what I know, the people I've talked to, and the airplanes I have personally been involved with, I believe you will see more short body Mooneys make the purchase than the mid body. The reason IS the autopilot. Right now the only options for the short body Mooney autopilot are the old stec30, and the Garmin GFC500, which is still very recent. For the cost of the GFC500, you can have a full glass panel in your airplane if you go the Dynon route.

The short body Mooney people have been waiting for autopilot solutions for a long time. The mid body people have options already.

I suspect that if another relatively inexpensive autopilot solution gets released for the short body variants, it will destroy a lot of the potential Dynon sales. It's a game of first to market.

I'm not sure how much you know about the Mooney people, but even through it's old, and the values aren't as high as some of the other options, the short body Mooneys are among the most desirable of the fleet. They are relatively cheap to purchase, and relatively cheap to own and operate. Many people purchasing these older airplanes prefer the manual johnson bar gear vs the electric. Plus they have an excellent history. To me, a manual gear Mooney and a modern glass panel is a top combination, and at that point it isn't as much the cost or the monetary value it brings as much as it is the informational value it brings, along with being able to finally add an autopilot.

 

[Mooney231]

I have a mid-body M20-K and Dynon HDX is already installed along with all the wiring for the AP and the hole in the panel where the module will go. HDX is great and the difference between glass and steam is amazing. The weather data lone is worth the price but there's so much more to appreciate with HDX. For sure the delays are disappointing and frustrating, I'm tired of hand flying long trips. The cost of now installing a different AP is prohibitive, the only economical option might be Aerocruise 100 (TruTrak) but I have no confidence in the timing - BK probably have the same certification issues as Dynon and they have a bus-load more money to throw at this than Dynon. How long have we all be waiting for TruTrak...talk about frustration. The question for me is how do we help Dynon stay motivated and what can we do to make the certification process go faster? If Dynon has an answer to this, just let us know!

 

[M20Driver]

I second this ! Im currently designing then installing a dual 10” with every option. Anything we can do to support !

 

[n144sh]

I have a mid-body M20-K and Dynon HDX is already installed along with all the wiring for the AP and the hole in the panel where the module will go. HDX is great and the difference between glass and steam is amazing. The weather data lone is worth the price but there's so much more to appreciate with HDX. For sure the delays are disappointing and frustrating, I'm tired of hand flying long trips. The cost of now installing a different AP is prohibitive, the only economical option might be Aerocruise 100 (TruTrak) but I have no confidence in the timing - BK probably have the same certification issues as Dynon and they have a bus-load more money to throw at this than Dynon. How long have we all be waiting for TruTrak...talk about frustration. The question for me is how do we help Dynon stay motivated and what can we do to make the certification process go faster? If Dynon has an answer to this, just let us know!

Where did you run the servo wiring for the AP servos? I asked Dynon where they were planning to put them and their tech support wouldn't answer. I'm doing an M20K now and planned to install the wiring but would like at least a reasonable chance of getting it correct. I'm assuming tail and wing but does it matter which wing? KFC150 was in right wing.

 

[Mooney231]

Pitch went to the back, where my old Century trim servo was. Roll went to the left wing. This was done in consultation with Dynon so not sure why you did not get an answer to your question - perhaps they are now not sure if it will be left or right wing. FYI, my Century AP had the roll servo in the left wing. Good luck with the install. You're going to enjoy HDX.

 

[Mooney231]

I second this ! Im currently designing then installing a dual 10” with every option. Anything we can do to support !

Short bodies are lucky, your panel configuration allows for (easier) dual 10" install. On the K model the angled breaker panel has to be modified to allow space for the second 10" - it can be done but a lot of work...maybe when I retire. The Dynon gallery has good pictures of Mooney installs ranging from C to K models.

 

[dominikos]

I have a mid-body M20-K and Dynon HDX is already installed along with all the wiring for the AP and the hole in the panel where the module will go. HDX is great and the difference between glass and steam is amazing. The weather data lone is worth the price but there's so much more to appreciate with HDX. For sure the delays are disappointing and frustrating, I'm tired of hand flying long trips. The cost of now installing a different AP is prohibitive, the only economical option might be Aerocruise 100 (TruTrak) but I have no confidence in the timing - BK probably have the same certification issues as Dynon and they have a bus-load more money to throw at this than Dynon. How long have we all be waiting for TruTrak...talk about frustration. The question for me is how do we help Dynon stay motivated and what can we do to make the certification process go faster? If Dynon has an answer to this, just let us know!

I did my part Filled any survey Dynon would throw at me and committed (through installer) to go for dual 10” setup with AP. For now, I plan to fly my Century IIB (semi working), add D3 as backup for the steam gauges and upgrade 430 to IFD440. so small steps in the right direction... My biggest challenge with this plan is that I don’t have engine monitor and I don’t want to spend money on one before Dynon upgrade.

Have you considered vertical 7” for just engine monitor and backup? I have J so very much same panel redo challenges.

 

[n144sh]

Pitch went to the back, where my old Century trim servo was. Roll went to the left wing. This was done in consultation with Dynon so not sure why you did not get an answer to your question - perhaps they are now not sure if it will be left or right wing. FYI, my Century AP had the roll servo in the left wing. Good luck with the install. You're going to enjoy HDX.

Thanks,

That's kinda what I figured but was stumped a bit when the KFC 150 was in the right wing. Left wing also has the brackets on the bellcrank.

 

[Mooney231]

I did my part Filled any survey Dynon would throw at me and committed (through installer) to go for dual 10” setup with AP. For now, I plan to fly my Century IIB (semi working), add D3 as backup for the steam gauges and upgrade 430 to IFD440. so small steps in the right direction... My biggest challenge with this plan is that I don’t have engine monitor and I don’t want to spend money on one before Dynon upgrade.

Have you considered vertical 7” for just engine monitor and backup? I have J so very much same panel redo challenges.

I never even thought about a vertical mount (my creativity IQ is not a strength). Gonna measure tomorrow so see it would fit. Thanks for the suggestion.