Is there any update on the Mooney Autopilot? Waiting for more than 2 years now and asking myself if it will ever happen? I understand that certification is a major effort but I simply cannot believe it is only the slow FAA. An honest Update from Dynon would really help deciding whether to keep the HDX or do Everything again and buy another brand that has a certified Autopilot. We love the HDX in our Mooney but the missing Autopilot is a show stopper
Mooney Autopilot
- Thread starter Flo
- Start date
Flo,
I also bought the HDX over two years ago for a Grumman Tiger, even put in the wiring and a blank plate for the autopilot.... Will it ever happen? OK Dynon if your not going to ramp up certifications you should assist owners in getting field approvals (which once done should help your processes) Please give us some guidance.
I also bought the HDX over two years ago for a Grumman Tiger, even put in the wiring and a blank plate for the autopilot.... Will it ever happen? OK Dynon if your not going to ramp up certifications you should assist owners in getting field approvals (which once done should help your processes) Please give us some guidance.
Unfortunately the FAA won’t give field approvals for AP’s any more - on the Tiger you still have the option to install the trio AP which will Interface to the HDX - on the Mooney there is no such option at this time unfortunately- in my opinion Dynon should support third party STC development from experienced Avionic installers to gain more AP STC’s
Rhino
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Dynon doesn't have the power to ramp up certifications. Only the FAA can do that. The only thing Dynon is lacking in is maybe communications with the customers. I'm guessing they're tired of saying the same thing over and over, 'you'll know when we know'. Nevertheless, it wouldn't hurt for them to give updates more often, even if they had nothing substantial to add. The information vacuum can be irritating to some. By the way, there is a "Get in Touch" link on their autopilot approvals page. Maybe you could try that.
Well - I understand the FAA is slow but what customers have a right to know is the actual status - if everything is already installed and working in the Dynon owned Mooney there is no way this takes 3 years or more for paperwork except if there are some issues or they are still in the middle of engineering the installation. Looks to me the AP certification seems to have a low priority
jessesaint
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The Mooney has been in development for a number of years, yes. Dynon has limited engineering resources, but the main hold-up is the FAA. Also, the Mooney came after the A36 Bonanza, then the Cessna 182, then a couple of updates to both of those (partially because of an engineering oversight), then the Baron is next and the Mooney after that. In the middle of this process, which had been taking about a year to get the FAA office to approve it, they starting using another FAA office that is faster at the processing, and they are waiting on the Baron approval. The Baron has been delayed because of 3-5 changes they had to make to earlier models. I would expect the Mooney approval Q3-4 of this year. I am not speaking for Dynon, and this is in no way an official statement. Just my own understanding of the status. In the past they have given time estimates, but when delays come, everybody gets upset because they couldn't meet the deadline due to no fault of their own. It's dealing with government that has little to no requirement for measurable productivity that causes most of the delays.
SaltyGator
New Member
Make sure you mention the Cherokee Six every time to talk to Dynon Jesse!
Thanks,
John
Thanks,
John
OgieOglethorpe
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Dynon has been pretty forthcoming in buying something else if youre waiting for an autopilot approval. I can commend that.
Now, if what Jesse said was accurate ( and I believe it to be), it would be nice to hear from dynon...just to nip these discussions in the bud before they even start. You wouldn't have to give a timeline on when approval is expected. But a quick update on the process, like Jesse did, would be nice.
I do know that the gentleman who got the approval for the trio autopilot in the pa24, 28, and 32 approached dynon about integrating their servos with his design he had approval for. Initially they were interested but have since gone silent.
I suspect the Seneca fiasco has made Dynon gun shy about farming things out as they ended up having to bring that project back in house.
Now, if what Jesse said was accurate ( and I believe it to be), it would be nice to hear from dynon...just to nip these discussions in the bud before they even start. You wouldn't have to give a timeline on when approval is expected. But a quick update on the process, like Jesse did, would be nice.
I do know that the gentleman who got the approval for the trio autopilot in the pa24, 28, and 32 approached dynon about integrating their servos with his design he had approval for. Initially they were interested but have since gone silent.
I suspect the Seneca fiasco has made Dynon gun shy about farming things out as they ended up having to bring that project back in house.
Well when we installed the HDX System in our Mooney in mid 2021 there was no word it could take anywhere close to 2 years or more … I hope the estimate from Jesse is correct - let’s see if someone from Dynon can comment on this! Or at least give an update if the integration is complete and all they are waiting for is paperwork or if more work is required…
OgieOglethorpe
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From Dynon when this was brought up before
we TRULY WISH an A&P/IA, avionics team/shop, and DAR were enough of an assist to make a dent here. We'd be farming projects out in droves. In reality, the complexities of autopilot design require deep mechanical engineering expertise, analysis, SkyView integration, a formal flight test program, high bandwidth FAA certification communication, and really can't be done outside an engineering organization without a lot of both depth and breadth. We've actually tried this route more than once so far, and the projects have ended up entirely inside of Dynon before the end. It's one of the reasons (but not the only one) that some of the projects have slipped date-wise, when we've needed to bring those partnered projects in-house when we didn't think we'd need to at the outset.
Rhino
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I hope they're correct too. But Dynon has been warning for a long time not to install their system expecting a future approval. They knew it would be difficult and time consuming. They also got grief over non-Dynon reps in the field giving unauthorized and unofficial expectations, and even actual estimates, on their own.
M20Driver
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Waiting on the mooney cert also. I spoke to a DAR last year and he walked me through the FAA order to educate me on what the FAA has made off limits to anything outside of an STC. One company has 239 individual airframes approved and counting at a really good rate, something seems fishy to me. The faa should treat all companies with the same attention.
Rhino
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There are different FAA offices that grant approvals, and it's well known that they don't, operate at nearly the same pace. Dynon has on at least one occasion to use a different approval authority, but I don't know if they were ever successful in getting that done.
M20Driver
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Venting.. Modern Autopilot are not that complicated, the experimental world has had garage builders successfully installing them from dynon and others with pretty good results, theres little to no statistics to warrant an autopilot are a hindernace to a safe flight.
I cant help but wonder; another company has made pretty impressive progress since 2017 in the general aviation and business world of automated flight. I just got word they approved an autopilot in an airframe I also maintain that there are only 126 of currently flying, and all in the same calandar year, along with many others. Quite the accomplishment. I also see a problem with this. TruTak, Trio, Dynon, and Garmin all took off with autopilot system approvals side by side when the FAA touted lightenting certification restrictions. One company (owned by Blackrock, and Vanguard) is winning the race, The others are barely off the starting line by comparison. How many politicians are wrapped up in the investment firms, and steering the market? I do believe has more capital to play with, but that shouldn't mean the government should hold other back while fast tracking others.
Modern autopilots are not that complicated, except when you need to interface them with airframe, avionics, etc. What is complicated, far more so, is the paperwork and makework that is dealing with a government agency, which only seems to be increasing exponentially in the past few years.
JohnAJohnson
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And that is my issue. What are those other companies doing differently? Dynon, do that!
And if it is FAA delays aimed at Dynon alone, let us know. I cannot ask my congressmen to spank the FAA when I am only guessing that the FAA is the problem.
M20Driver
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Its only one company that is full steam ahead. It’s not just Dynon, the other avionics companies deal with it also, they cant get anything done in a reasonable time frame. Go look at the STC’s each company holds and the time frame. I’ve been working for a year to get a field approval for my airplane for an STC’d standby alternator that not approved for my airframe. It’s stupid simple, but the FAA keep grasping at requirements that exceed the original STC, and some requirements don’t even apply to the modification. They don't want to do anything.
Garmin is an ODA ( Organization Designation authorization) For my own knowledge I started digging into what does it take to become an ODA. In the ODA application, homepage, it specifically says “Discuss any plans to apply for ODA with your FAA managing office prior to submitting an application as not all qualified organizations will be granted ODA. ODA’s are granted based on the needs of the appointing office and benefit to the FAA” Competition for Garmin is not beneficial to the faa, nor the shareholders..
I feel our system is not only broken, but that old saying applies, follow the money. I’ve read on other forums of varying interests, and Monopoly and Garmin are mentioned. The only thing holding other companies back, is the government. I try not to get political. But several large investment firms own a lot of Garmin, and I wonder who’s invested in those firms that’s involved in Washington. I hate politics and the divide they create. I just see whats going on for what it is.
Garmin is an ODA ( Organization Designation authorization) For my own knowledge I started digging into what does it take to become an ODA. In the ODA application, homepage, it specifically says “Discuss any plans to apply for ODA with your FAA managing office prior to submitting an application as not all qualified organizations will be granted ODA. ODA’s are granted based on the needs of the appointing office and benefit to the FAA” Competition for Garmin is not beneficial to the faa, nor the shareholders..
I feel our system is not only broken, but that old saying applies, follow the money. I’ve read on other forums of varying interests, and Monopoly and Garmin are mentioned. The only thing holding other companies back, is the government. I try not to get political. But several large investment firms own a lot of Garmin, and I wonder who’s invested in those firms that’s involved in Washington. I hate politics and the divide they create. I just see whats going on for what it is.
JohnAJohnson
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S-TEC has a lot of STCs for their 3100, and it rolled out at the same time (2018) as Garmin and Dynon certified autopilots. To me, it appears they certify the same aircraft model in one shot, such as every Cessna 210, or all Bonanzas.
These were not all done in 2018. There have been STCs churned out since, most recent (6/23) are the PA30/39s and Britten-Normans.
These were not all done in 2018. There have been STCs churned out since, most recent (6/23) are the PA30/39s and Britten-Normans.
Certifications (Current)
- Aviat A-1C-180, & A-1C-200 (serial number 3301 and above)
- Beechcraft Bonanza 35, A35, B35, C35, D35, E35, F35, G35, H35, J35, K35, M35, N35, P35, S35, V35, V35A, V35B, 36, A36, A36TC & B36TC
- Beechcraft Baron/TravelAir 95-55, 95-A55, 95-B55, 95-B55A, 95-B55B, 95-C55, 95-C55A, D55, D55A, E55, E55A, 56TC, A56TC, 58, 58A, 58P, 58PA, 58TC, 58TCA, 95, B95, B95A, D95A, E95
- Beechcraft King Air 65-90, 65-A90, 65-109-1, 65-A90-4, B90, C90, C90A, C90GT, E90, F90, H90,100, A100, A100A, A100-1, B100, 200, 200C, 200T, A200, A200CT (excluding serial number FE-1 and above), B200, B200C, B200CT, and B200T
- Beechcraft 1900, 1900C, & 1900C (C-12J)*
- Britten-Norman BN-2A-2, BN-2A-6, BN-2A-8, BN-2A-20, BN-2A-26, BN-2B-20, BN-2B-26, BN-2T
- Cessna 177, 177A, 177B, 177RG & F177RG
- Cessna 182D through 182T, F182P, F182Q, R182, T182, T182T, TR182, & FR182
- Cessna 210, 210A, 210B, 210C, 210D, 210E, 210F, T210F, 210G, T210G, 210H, T210H, 210J, T210J, 210K, T210K, 210L, T210L, 210M, T210M, 210N, T210N, 210R, T210R, P210N, & P210R
- Cessna T303, 310D through 310R, T310P, T310Q, T310R, 320B through F, 335, 340, & 340A
- Cessna 414, 414A, 421, 421A, 421B, 421C, & 425
- de Havilland Canada/Viking Air DHC-6-100, DHC-6-200, DHC-6-300
- Pilatus PC-6/B1-H2*, PC-6/B2-H2*, PC-6/B2-H4*, PC-6/B-H2*, PC-6/C-H2*
- Piper PA-24-180, PA-24-250, PA-24-260, PA-24-400
- Piper PA-30, PA-39
- Piper PA-31, PA-31-300, PA-31-325, PA-31-350, PA-31P-350, PA-31P, PA-31T, PA-31-T1, PA-31-T2
- Piper PA-32-260, PA-32-300, PA-32R-300, PA-32RT-300, PA-32RT-300T, PA-32-301, PA-32-301T, PA-32-301FT, PA-32-301XTC, PA-32R-301, & PA-32R-301T
- Piper PA-46-310P, PA-46-350P, PA-46-500TP, & PA-46R-350T
- Piper Aerostar PA-60-600, PA-60-601, PA-60-601P, & PA-60-602P
- Twin Commander 695, 695A, 690, 690A, 690B, 690C, 690D, 680D, 680W, 681, 500,500-A, 500-B, 500-S, 500-U, 560A, 560E, & 560F
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