New Trig Radio

[flybuddy]

Module looks similar to the 261/262 transponder (also by Trig). Will this be the radio eventually for Skyview?

"New Comm Radios From Trig

Given all the excitement over tablet apps and big-screen EFIS, the lowly comm radio has become a lost ball in high grass. But Trig Avionics, a U.K.-based company, has introduced two new comm radios that fit into a standard instrument hole with a remote box that can be mounted just about anywhere in the aircraft. At the AEA show in Washington, D.C., Trig's Andy Davis gave AVweb a briefing on the new radios in this podcast.

The new radios are aimed at light sport aircraft or antiques or any other type of aircraft that has limited space behind the panel. "It's a very conventional VHF radio. It has a standard flip-flop and a dual watch feature where you can listen to the standby at the same time as the active," Davis told us. The radios also have a built-in, two-place intercom, a 6-watt nominal transmitter output and will run on 14 or 28 volts. List price is around $2000, according to Trig."

 

[dynonsupport]

We are working with Trig, but the radio is not the same and we don't have details to announce yet.  Trig announced their radio at the AEA show which is traditional for certified products, and they are a ways from shipping anything.

 

[vlittle]

In my opinion, this move towards remote avionics is not welcomed.  It turns out that it's more difficult to mount a remote box on a tray than to have a conventional panel mount device as long as there is enough depth behind the panel.  Access to a remote tray is often very difficult unless special hatches are built in from the start.

There are many Comm radios out there that occupy a 2" hole or a radio stack location and don't need a separate box.  I hope that this is Dynon's plan.

What I really need from Dynon is a 3" Skyview network compatible EFIS with internal 'gyros' and a shallow draft that works as a backup in the front seat and a primary flight display in the rear seat (for a tandem).  All this mucking about with Comm radios is distracting Dynon from what it does best... EFIS systems.

At this point, I'm about to specify a competitor's EFIS system as a backup to Skyview in my a/c because I can't fit a D6 or D10A in my panel because there is limited depth caused by....   you guessed it, all these remote mounted avionics on a shelf behind the panel!

So the law of unintended consequences applies here... Dynon wants to gain more revenue by selling a Comm, but they are giving up revenue on the EFIS side by not keeping up on the hardware side, and in many cases the software feature side.

I've stuck with Dynon through thick and thin for many years and I think I've earned my stripes by finding product bugs, assisting on interchange protocols and designing products that support and enhance their customers.  I'm am getting concerned, however, that they are falling behind and/or focusing on the wrong things.

Just my opinion after 30 years of product development experience.

Vern Little
Vx Aviation

 

[flybuddy]

Understandable, but I'm of the opposite opinion and like the remote mounts. No matter how you slice it there is only "X" amount of panel space in a given aircraft. There are all kinds of location options with remote mounts. optimal IMO is a 10" Skyview on left side that does EVERYTHING and a D6 or D10 on right side as backup.

 

[vlittle]

Understandable, but I'm of the opposite opinion and like the remote mounts. No matter how you slice it there is only "X" amount of panel space in a given aircraft. There are all kinds of location options with remote mounts. optimal IMO is a 10" Skyview on left side that does EVERYTHING and a D6 or D10 on right side as backup.

...But the Dynon Comm will take both panel space and a remote tray.  I disagree that there are a lot of *accessible* remote mount locations in our small aircraft.  They are just not designed that way.   

For example, look at the pain and suffering builders are going through finding an accessible location for the ADAHRS.  In our aircraft, I think the proper place for avionics is on the panel, not buried in the bowels of the airframe (with the exception of magnetic sensors).

Modern microelectronics allows us to shrink electronics down to trivial sizes.  I manufactured an entire line of products where the circuitry was contained entirely inside the backshell of d-sub connectors.  This made the connector the largest component in the design-- effectively the electronics occupied zero volume.  Everytime we make remote boxes with control panels, we duplicated sheet metal, electronics, add connectors, add weight and take more space, all of which is unecessary.

V

 

[jakej]

I'm with you on this Vern - as an installer of avionics I'm finding it more difficult to locate these remote boxes in a position that is readily accessible for serviceing, for example the RV's - I use the sub panel to mount EMS module, 2 x Bat, Arinc Converter & SV Transponder.  There are usually other third party items eg remote dimmer system so I've resorted to piggybacking the Arinc units where 2 are used, not an ideal option.

my .02 cents 

Jake J

 

[mmarien]

In my opinion, this move towards remote avionics is not welcomed.  It turns out that it's more difficult to mount a remote box on a tray than to have a conventional panel mount device as long as there is enough depth behind the panel.  Access to a remote tray is often very difficult unless special hatches are built in from the start.

That is an interesting comment. I was looking at my panel and it's becoming more blank as I progress. I started with a classic Glasair which has four separate panels; flight gauges, radio stack, engine gauges and breaker panel. Well five if you count the small one on the extreme left. It had the fuel gauges and key switch. Installing the Skyview system combined the flight and engine gauges into one display (panel). It added two small remote mounted boxes, three if you add the backup battery. I recently installed VP-X and it replaced the breaker panel. I now have two blank panels. What's left is Skyview and an avionics stack.

Personally I like concept of integrated equipment with big bright displays to interact with. If I had the cash I'd replace the whole avionics stack with the Garmin 750 with remote transponder and audio panel. When you think about it, the avionics stack is a bevy of single purpose knobs and buttons. I think Dynon and Garmin are headed in the right direction with modular remotely mounted equipment managed from a single interactive display. I shouldn't have to chop a new hole in my panel to add a new function.

While I made a shelf behind the panel for VP-X and my fuel injection electronics I have a whole lot of space behind the passenger compartment that is under utilized and easy to get at by removing the back bulkhead. I think we just have to start thinking differently about how we use the space. Not everything needs to be mounted on the panel. Also, once you remove the breakers from the panel (VP-X), think about how few wires there are connecting the panel to the fuselage and how easy it is to make the panel removable to access the remotely mounted equipment back there.

 

[dedgemon]

$2000 !!!!
This is moving the wrong direction.


With modern elctronics Comms should be getting dirt cheap and small. There is no need for a remote mount Comm unless you want it to be entirely headless and operated from the Efis.

 

[airguy]

Vern,

I can empathize with you on the panel space, but one mans trash is anothers treasure. As I'm building my 9A I knew I would be a bit noseheavy and I've enjoyed being able to move several avionics boxes to a mounting shelf just aft of the elevator autopilot servo behind the baggage compartment. Remote avionics in my case made perfect sense, and I can still access them easily enough by removing the aft baggage bulkhead - all of 2 minutes with a screwgun.

I'm not prepared to give Dynon feedback that they are screwing up by chasing the comm radios or remote mounts - there is enough diversity in the market that they will not paint themselves into a corner with that (IMHO) - I just wish they would add a little horsepower to the R&D side and get the ADSB box and comm box rolled out on the market before their competitors begin to erode their market share.

 

[flybuddy]

Why does there need to be a remote head? I'm sure it can be worked directly from Skyview like the Transponder. Also, the price will probably be less without remote head just as the 261/262 are cheaper than their Trig counterparts.

 

[dynonsupport]

Three simple reasons the radio will have and require a control head:

1) You don't want to dig through menus to adjust the volume of the radio. People already complain SkyView doesn't have enough knobs for the functions it has already!

2) You don't want to have to dig through menus every time you want to adjust the frequency. See above.

3) You don't want to lose your com radio if your SkyView system fails.

 

[flybuddy]

Makes sense but then what's the benefit of having it on the Skyview system?

 

[dynonsupport]

You'll see what makes the integration so neat when we are closer and can talk about it a bit more. Being hooked to SkyView gives us some amazing possibilities.

 

[owl]

I agree with Vern on this. In this case one has to find room and mount 2 items. If I am going to mount the head in the panel then put the radio in with the head so I don't need to find room for and mount another item. I also don't like odd shaped heads, as to me they look out of place. I would have preferred a single piece 6 inch wide radio that's thin and can be mounted along with the other avionics. It wouldnt take much more panel space than what's proposed, there would only be one unit to mount, it would be lighter and cheaper, and if designed properly it would be aesthetically more pleasing than a separate odd sized head.

 

[vlittle]

My expectation of the SV radio is that it will also contain an intercom/audio panel, with software controlled volume controls, muting and music capability.

The radio then replaces the intercom as well, in about the same form factor as a normal intercom.

My challenge to Dynon is... why reinvent stuff that already exists and performs well?  Why not provide a 3" SV capable EFIS (shallow draft) with internal backup gyros which should be right in Dynon's wheelhouse (or should I use the Trutrak Gemini PFD)?

I know Dynon is trying to gobble up the entire panel (and a few remote trays to go with it-- bazinga!).  That may increase revenue and ultimately help the company, but in the process they are falling behind (3 inch SV EFIS, SL30 and SL40 tuning, 2nd tier support for non-USA mapping, taxi-aid camera support etc.)

I`ve been a long time supporter of Dynon and some of this feedback should be consider tough love.  It`s just a crying shame that I have to use Trutrak (3 inch backup EFIS), Garmin Aera GPS (for international mapping, SL30 tuning and MP3 tunes).

Sorry for the thread drift, but this stuff has been boiling for a while.

 

[dabear]

Sorry its been boiling for a while. Help me understand why its boling please.

Just checked their website, Tru Track has 2 EFIS displays but neither fit in 3.25 inch hole. They have an ADI but that is not an EFIS.

If you need a backup EFIS, why not the D6? I don't see the need for a SV 3inch EFIS. 2 7"SV serve the primary/backup function. Need a true, 3", use the D6.

I did a ton of research when looking at what to put in my plane. Looked at BM (dead), TruTrak, Advanced, GRT, etc. If you look at total cost for the system, flexibility, redundancy, 2-3 screen use/cost, Auto Pilot, and future focus. There really isn't a better system out there.

Some play better in point areas. But the whole system.

I understand we'd all like them to finish the system, software/hardware, and features tomorrow. But I'd rather have Dynon be a long term financially stable company. That means they continue focused effort witht the reasources they have to meet the requirements of the majority of their customer base.

 

[vlittle]

Sorry its been boiling for a while.  Help me understand why its boling please.

Just checked their website, Tru Track has 2 EFIS displays but neither fit in 3.25 inch hole.  They have an ADI but that is not an EFIS.

If you need a backup EFIS, why not the D6?  I don't see the need for a SV 3inch EFIS.  2 7"SV serve the primary/backup function.  Need a true, 3", use the D6.

I did a ton of research when looking at what to put in my plane.  Looked at BM (dead), TruTrak, Advanced, GRT, etc.  If you look at total cost for the system, flexibility, redundancy, 2-3 screen use/cost, Auto Pilot, and future focus.  There really isn't a better system out there. 

Some play better in point areas.  But the whole system. 

I understand we'd all like them to finish the system, software/hardware, and features tomorrow.  But I'd rather have Dynon be a long term financially stable company.  That means they continue focused effort witht the reasources they have to meet the requirements of the majority of their customer base.

My frustration with Dynon is that they are letting Trutrak into the 3" EFIS game with the Gemini ADI and Gemini PFD.  You should have investigated this a bit more before you posted your comment... the PFD will directly compete with the D6 and D10A, but will be better for the back seat in tandems and as a backup for the front panel.

The D6/D10A does not play with the Skyview, so there is no benefit there.  The D6/D10A requires a remote compass, but the Trutrak uses GPS ground track, thus requires no remote box.  The D6/D10A has an internal backup battery option which is of value. 

The killer is the size and weight of the D6/D10A compared with the Gemini.  Oh, and the Gemini PFD is cheaper.

It seems obvious to me that a 3" Skyview compatible EFIS would be attractive.  An internal gyro set would make it insensitive to ADAHRS failure and could serve as a backup ADAHRS for the primary display if implemented properly.  Yes, heading would become track, but that's not critical.  Running pitot/static to it is a pain, but a necessary evil for a true backup.

I've already had to purchase a stand-alone GPS because I was concerned that Dynon's support of non-US aviation databases is a second priority.  Buying a Trutrak EFIS as a backup is a second frustration.

I've earned my stripes with Dynon over the years, and I hope that my critism is taken as valued customer feedback. 

Here's the specs for the 3`Skyview:

-EFIS fits in a standard 3`instrument hole
-Skyview network compatible
-Internal attitude gyros, plus pitot and static connections to provide a backup ADAHRS for the Skyview network (no magnetic heading).
-Shallow draft, less than 2 inches
-lightweight
-sunlight readable screen
-provisions for external backup battery if required

V