Open up format for worldwide databases

[rstausebach]

Hi Dynon,

As a South African aviator I have been eagerly awaiting the navigation software to bring the Skyview up to expectation at last. Being restricted to Jeppeson is a disappointment however. (not least the difficulty in obtaining the software!)

Is it not possible to share the database requirements and format in order to be able to use public information? MGL Avionics have made available such a database:
http://mglavionics.co.za/

They have also provided a flight planning programme, something I thought the navigation software would include. I love the display and functionality of my Skyview, but with these elements currently still missing am starting to wish I had gone for MGL instead!

Kind regards,
Roel Stausebach

 

[beno]

We have same problem here in Europe, actually everywhere outside of USA Skyview map functions are very limited.

Best and fastest solution would be to give us possibilities for preparing some chart data, similar to waypoints. There are a lot of data locally available (cities, hills etc., local small airports) which we could use in Skyview.

Please Dynon, open data format or give us some ulitities for compiling the data. Jeppesen aviation database is fine, but adding our local airports data and other details would be even better.

 

[trevpond]

Hey Beno,

I agree with all you have said. I was expecting a "mark" command on the map page so I could mark various positions like airfields etc, or be able to use map references to do the same.

Dynon, in Europe in particular, most of us fly off farm strips and need to input this info into our navigation tools. We can do it with Garmin, and various other makes of GPS, why can't we do it on our all singing all dancing skyview units?

Trev :-/

 

[mmarien]

Have you looked at Skyview User Waypoints?

http://wiki.dynonavionics.com/SkyView_User_Waypoints

 

[trevpond]

Yes, I have looked at the user waypoints - cumbersome and extremely slow to do in at least two stages. Let usdo user waypoints using Co-ordinates or a Mark position function and then an edit to insert more info.

Trev

 

[rstausebach]

Would be really nice to get a response from Dynon on this? :

 

[dynonsupport]

User waypoints created from within SkyView are coming soon, for sure. As for the original request - it's something we'll consider, but most of the people that congregate to plan future features are travelling for the next few weeks (Sun 'n Fun, then Aero Friedricschafen), so it will be a little while before we sit down to consider future features.

 

[rstausebach]

Ok thanks for the response Dynon. I look forward to hearing more on this at the time then.

 

[Ham_Goulding]

Let me add my voice to requests for easier User Waypoint creation, more detail of geographical features, and the facility for selecting an inbound course to a fix or waypoint.

I have just started to use 3.0 in Ireland with Jepp database. It is fantastic as far as it goes, but does badly need these additions to make full use of its potential and make it a full substitute for an external GPS. The airports, VOR's, airspace etc are great especially for IFR use. However I'm sure a large proportion of your users are wanting VFR functions. As someone already said we have a lot of small unlicenced strips in Europe and it is difficult and cumbersome to add them to the system as the User Waypoint systems stands at the minute. We need lat and long entry or Mark Pos function. VFR reporting points are essential and also more data on towns and villages, rivers, roads etc. Most other GPS systems are able to provide these and they are useful. Finally the selection of an inbound radial or course is very desirable.

Well done so far, but please make the final steps to having a complete system. Thanks.

 

[trevpond]

Well done Ham, I'm glad someone else feels as I do.

regards


Trevor

 

[rstausebach]

I am sure that all of the non USA and many of the USA customers will feel the same way. I would have thought that it should be receiving pretty serious discussion from Dynon, even while they are attending shows. Hell, not a lot that happens there anyway!

I believe we need more than simply waypoints but the ability to input runway dimensions and orientation in a batch fashion. The reticence to open the system up is puzzling, unless there is some exclusivity agreement with Jeppeson.

Speaking of which, I have now sent 8 emails and one fax to Jeppeson and have never come across a dimmer bunch nor had anywhere near this much aggravation in trying to get an order placed! :'(

 

[dynonsupport]

Roel,
As someone that has worked at airshows before, let me first say that 12+ hours on your feet with people stacked 4 deep is lots and lots of work. If you think we don't do much there, you've never seen a Dynon booth! Those guys deserve a break in the evenings. Plus, it's not like there was a tornado there yesterday or anything.

Also, this discussion is less than a week old, so give us some time to think this over and look at our options.

Since I'm not at SnF this year, a quick discussion on the way databases work in SkyView:

As you have noticed, we distribute files in the .DUP format. This is not a database directly, this is a container for different types of files. This container is not something we are going to describe or let people mess with, as it can lead to a lot of problems. One of our goals with all of our products is that they are stable and well supported, and we can't have people coding their own .DUP packing programs. Plus, that probably doubles the work required.

Inside the .DUP is not a database in the way you may expect it, as it is not a text file of airports, airspaces, etc. It is a pre-processed database that is in binary and includes a bunch of relationships between everything we need. This is also very complex, and would take you a very, very long time to code up, just like it did for our engineers.

We of course have a program that takes a standard database and makes a .DUP. The database standard we use is ARINC-424. This is the standard format that is published, and is what Jeppesen and the FAA give us data in.

This program is not currently written or designed to be distributed, but that is what we will be considering. We will likely need to do some work on it if we do that.

I can't believe there is any chance that we will support anything besides a ARINC-424 import, so this is what you should be looking at getting your data into. ARINC-424 is a published format, but it's a copyrighted format that we can't distribute so you'll need to acquire it on your own.

If you go down this path, there can be only one database in the system at a time, so you can't add small airports to a Jeppesen database with that method. Supporting more than one database is a huge technical issue for us, but if that is what customers are asking for we can consider that.

None of this is a promise that we will do anything, but now you know what our situation is.

 

[rstausebach]

That was a very useful response, many thanks! It provides some context to the problem. Given the single database usage it then probably becomes most appropriate to add items to the likes of Jeppeson rather tahn starting from scratch. I guess the challenge lies in pro icing an interface through which this can be done even on a single entry basis, while retaining overall database integrity. Hopefully you can come up with something.

By the way, I was just kidding about workload at airshows

 

[RudiGreyling]

To Dynon Support,

I am a strong supporter of your products, have 2 x 10" Skyviews in my RV10, 2 x D100 & D120 in RV7, and D180 and D100 in RV12.

You seriusly need to look at your functionality and openeness and usefulness of your Mapping Software for $500 price + Jeppesen Mapping Software price for Non USA customers.

A Garmin handheld for $700 includes the device costs and is way more open and userfriendly, and getting user waypoints and using 3rd party planning software to work with it is a breeze.

Your cost vs functionality is not in line here with the rest of the market. Please fix this for us, your commited customers, as a matter of urgency!

Kind Regards
Rudi Greyling

 

[dynonsupport]

So we're hearing you here, and we're trying to figure out where we can improve things in SkyView to create a better mapping experience for non-US customers. There are a bunch of things in the threads floating up from all of you, and we're trying to figure out precisely where SkyView isn't stacking up.

To help us aggregate some data, we've created a little web form survey at http://www.dynonavionics.com/map-feedback to get some more concrete data from all of you. If you're willing to take a few minutes to fill it out, even if you've posted here, we'd really appreciate it.

 

[S-23]

Hi Dynon!

If I recall right, the SV is running Linux as a base OS.
How about an XML-dataformat for user imports? That way you can keep the DUPs closed and still give users a possibility to import stuff.
Also, XML would make it reasonably easy for others to write converters from various database formats to the Dynon XML.
With the amount of Dynon products out there (at least as I estimate), chances should be pretty good that some open source developers include the Dynon XML format into their software.
Drawing up the specs for the XML format should be fairly easy and could even be done collaboratively in the forum.

How about that?

 

[perryc]

Hi All,


It's a little early for us to go public but there's a small group of us pilot nerd types working on a openstreetmap.org inspired global aviation database and hope we can entice as many GPS vendors as possible to make a free version of our data available formatted for their devices. I've got Dynon stuff so be sure I'll be pestering them relentlessly to get on board when we are ready. Nothing public to show yet but we are pretty happy with the progress we’ve been making. If this sounds like something you'd like to get involved in please join our email list at openavmap.org. Of course more developers joining is of interest but there is a lot to do that’s not coding like ferreting out public sources of data for different countries, testing, writing etc. etc. It will be more fun that watching TV in the evenings, we promise.

Of course if Dynon was to just make a spec or api so we could make our own databases. We'd add an export to Dynon feature to our site darn quickly.

Perry Casson

 

[jabb]

Dear Dynon,

Import ARINC 424 is certainly a solution, because it's an international standard. Everyone can buy and use it. Not the format, but the distribution is subject to the standards of protection. It would not be bad if the Skyview could import ARINC 424 file directly from USB (as FMS do), but we would be sufficient if we could download the Dynon software to encapsulate ARINC 424 data into the DUP file.

Some advantages
a) using standardized format allows end users to choose between different database suppliers independently from the selected avionics system
b) we can use a single database for multiple different devices
c) we can combine official ARINC 424 data with our own ARINC 424 data

I do not know what subset of ARINC 424 recodset is supported by Skyview, but you should place such information in the documentation, as I recommend You somewhere in the forum regarding to 'course to fix path / terminator' (virtual VOR)