Procedures in flight plan

[PilotNurse]

I have a Dynon Skyview HDX system and recently purchased the Seattle Avionics IFR chart data for it.
It can display all the procedures in the map, but I don’t know how to load a procedure into the flight plan. Can someone help with this?

 

[cbennet12]

As of the current software, you can only add waypoints to a flight plan. Probably because the Skyview alone is not an IFR approved device. If you have an IFR GPS, you can include a procedure in the GPS FP and if desired, load the procedure manually in the Skyview at the appropriate time since they are geo referenced.

 

[skysailor]

Legally you must use the certified IFR navigator when flying any procedure on an IFR flight plan. Loading points on the Skyview and allowing the Skyview to navigate along them is not allowed on any SID, STAR or approach. If you have a certified IFR navigator installed all you have to do is change the HSI source from Skyview to the IFR receiver (Garmin GNS 480 in my case). The flight plan shown on the page for your navigator in the Skyview will then show the entire list of points as you add only the single named procedure as you expect. The HSI will respond to the certified navigator commands sent over the ARINC 429 bus and the auto pilot will fly it. Fly by and mandatory fly over points will be shown in the flight plan for the IFR navigator on the Skyview.

 

[cbretana]

Can you create/enter/use a flight plan that uses GPS2020 waypoints for enroute legs, and transitions to IFR Certified navigator (I have VAL NAV2000 hooked up to HDX). when starting the approach?
Obviously, I would like to not be restricted to enroute NAV using only VORs just in order to have ILS Approach onscreen at destination...

 

[cbennet12]

All portions of an IFR flight needs to be utilizing an IFR certified device. The 2020 does not qualify.

 

[airguy]

Can you create/enter/use a flight plan that uses GPS2020 waypoints for enroute legs, and transitions to IFR Certified navigator (I have VAL NAV2000 hooked up to HDX). when starting the approach?
Obviously, I would like to not be restricted to enroute NAV using only VORs just in order to have ILS Approach onscreen at destination...

If you are on an IFR flight plan, using a certified navigation device is the only "official" way to do it. You could ask for vectors and fly a heading also.

 

[Marc_J._Zeitlin]

All portions of an IFR flight needs to be utilizing an IFR certified device. The 2020 does not qualify.

If the device is the PRIMARY means of navigation, that is correct but there are other legal primary means of navigation.

Also legal for IFR is, per 91.205:

Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.​

"Suitable for the route to be flown" is the key - it's legal to use a ham sandwich as the primary means of IFR en-route navigation (i.e., pilotage, dead reckoning, etc.) as long as you file (and get) your route assuming that primary means. You can then use any GPS (or anything else) as your SECONDARY means of navigation. But this only applies en-route. How likely are you to get a route that you file based on pilotage? No idea. But for enroute, it's legal, _IF_ you can do it. Don't file IFR via pilotage over a cloud deck that doesn't let you reference the ground...

As airguy points out, ATC vectors and headings/tracks would also be completely legal.

 

[cbennet12]

Well said Marc.

 

[preid]

to answer your question; create the flight plan with the initial point of the procedure right before the final destination of the arriving airport. Fly the plan and when you get to the final leg (your arriving airport IAF) choose INFO/PLT. you will see the procedures and CHARTS page there and can choose the chart you want, it will overlay the chart in place of the Map Showing the plane in relation to the chart. You can also choose LAYERS from MAP menu if you want the sectional, low and hi IFR charts overlay, or you can choose terrain for the regular map. When you land the airport diagram should populate automatically.
Although I have flown a full RNAV approach successfully solely this way, it was simulated and under VFR, to make this thread clear, Seattle provides charts for reference, like paper charts, and like the paper charts its solely a reference.

 

[Spert]

So, in theory, with the non-certified Skyview, you should be able to fly any GPS approach that would be legal with a non-WAAS GPS (LNAV). You would have non-precision lateral guidance, but no vertical guidance and be limited to descents to MDA based on baro altimeter.
With the IFR navigator, you get full certified approach capability with vertical guidance and lower mins where applicable. Technically still non-precision, but to localizer like performance (LPV).

 

[skysailor]

So, in theory, with the non-certified Skyview, you should be able to fly any GPS approach that would be legal with a non-WAAS GPS (LNAV). You would have non-precision lateral guidance, but no vertical guidance and be limited to descents to MDA based on baro altimeter.
With the IFR navigator, you get full certified approach capability with vertical guidance and lower mins where applicable. Technically still non-precision, but to localizer like performance (LPV).

Actually, this is not correct. Remember the vertical guidance (LNAV/VNAV or LPV) is determined by the WAAS signal required to be checked automatically by the IFR navigator within a set of parameters of the final approach coarse. A certified WAAS IFR navigator may only give you LNAV guidance based on this RAIM/WAAS check. Even though I have an LPV capable certified IFR navigator, it will only show LNAV guidance if the RAIM/WAAS check it automatically performs does not rise to the level of vertical guidance. Truth be told, you do not know the minimums you will be using for an RNAV GPS approach until you are on course inbound which is when the IFR navigator will display LNAV, LNAV/VNAV (or LNAV + V), or LPV. It is one of the reasons WAAS IFR navigators must either be installed within a specified distance of the center of the pilot's instrument panel or have a certified annunciator capable of showing this status.

This may become more of a problem now that the FCC is going ahead with allowing use of this end spectrum for a company wanting to provide 5G cellular which is very close to the GPS signal. AOPA and EAA continue to fight this allocation for this very reason. The Skyview is not a certified IFR navigator. While I would agree the accuracy of the lateral guidance information would likely be the same on RNAV approaches without RF legs, the FARs say you may not navigate using it. The FARs require a certified IFR navigator regardless the minimums used for the approach. In a declared emergency I am confident the Dynon will be equal to the task.

 

[cbretana]

Again, I am NOT asking about what is legal, or certified, or anything else.. I am just asking about the physical capabilities of the Skyview system. I have a Skyview HDX with GPS 2020, and I am installing a VAL NAV 2000 VOR/ILS receiver connected to it. Clearly I can fly an ILS to ILS minimums with vertical guidance.
What I am asking is whether the Skyview hardware/software CAN (will ALLOW me to) create, in the SkyView, a flight plan using GPS waypoints (ARTCC named waypoints, radial/DMD defined waypoints, User defined waypoint, Lat/Longs, whatever), for the enroute portion of the flight and transition to the VAL NAV 2000 controlled published ILS approach upon arrival at IAF?

To discuss the legality anyway... and remember, I would legally be declaring that my VOR receiver (combined with GPS distance), was my "primary" navigation device...
I'm not 100% positive, and I confess I don't actually remember doing this, but I think, technically, as far as legality is concerned, for the enroute portion of IFR flight plan back in the days before GPS, you could just file from one VOR radial/DME point to another, you did not HAVE to file along published defined jet routes and VR routes. But few did that because it was harder to navigate and also, (perhaps), because ATC back then wanted more control over the grouping, clumping together, and flow of commercial traffic. And I don't think you legally needed to have visual contact with the ground to do that.

If you think about the last leg prior to the approach of most flight plans back in the day, they went from a named point, (a VOR/VORTAC or a radial/DME from a VOR), to an IAF, which was generally a VOR/VORTAC itself, but could be radial/DME from a VORTAC or the intersection of two VOR radials). In the second case, that's in essence the exact same thing. That leg was not just flying along a VOR radial, it involved using the changing displayed radial from two VORs, or the changing radial/DME from a VORTAC, to navigate.

 

[Tim Fitz]

I have a VAL 2000 and Skyview (also now have a Garmin 175) but before I added the Garmin I would practice in VFR doing waypoints in the Skyview flight plan to the IAP and then the FAF. As I recall once you get on the final if you have VNAV armed it will capture on its own or you can then select it once it has a good signal from the Localizer. You can also be up heading and altitude while you receive vectors to final and arm VNAV. Once VNAV has good signal it captures the ILS and will track the course and start down when it intercepts the glideslope. So to make a long story short (too late) you can build a flight plan in the Skyview using just about anything. Plus with the Seattle Avionics charts installed you will have geo-referenced charts showing where you are on the chart. Hope this helps, good luck.

 

[cbretana]

Awesome.. That's what I hoped was the case. Thanks so much for your reply.. I was about to assume I would have to wait until I got everything installed and calibrated, and actually take it for a test flight, before I would know the answer..

To everyone who contributed to my confusion....
My apologies for not making my question crystal clear at the outset. I should have known there would be a natural inclination to answer the Legal (FAA - Certified) aspects of this instead of the "How does the Skyview work" aspects of it...
Should have made that clearer at the outset...

 

[Spert]

Actually, this is not correct. Remember the vertical guidance (LNAV/VNAV or LPV) is determined by the WAAS signal required to be checked automatically by the IFR navigator within a set of parameters of the final approach coarse. A certified WAAS IFR navigator may only give you LNAV guidance based on this RAIM/WAAS check. Even though I have an LPV capable certified IFR navigator, it will only show LNAV guidance if the RAIM/WAAS check it automatically performs does not rise to the level of vertical guidance. Truth be told, you do not know the minimums you will be using for an RNAV GPS approach until you are on course inbound which is when the IFR navigator will display LNAV, LNAV/VNAV (or LNAV + V), or LPV. It is one of the reasons WAAS IFR navigators must either be installed within a specified distance of the center of the pilot's instrument panel or have a certified annunciator capable of showing this status.

This may become more of a problem now that the FCC is going ahead with allowing use of this end spectrum for a company wanting to provide 5G cellular which is very close to the GPS signal. AOPA and EAA continue to fight this allocation for this very reason. The Skyview is not a certified IFR navigator. While I would agree the accuracy of the lateral guidance information would likely be the same on RNAV approaches without RF legs, the FARs say you may not navigate using it. The FARs require a certified IFR navigator regardless the minimums used for the approach. In a declared emergency I am confident the Dynon will be equal to the task.

You are correct. I should have added "...IAW all the other associated limitations and restrictions for a given approach and set of equipment" after the LPV comment for clarity.

The point I was trying to make (which it turns out was also incorrect, more on that in a minute) was that I thought the SkyView GPS was legally equivalent to some of the earlier GPS systems that were good for enroute but not for approaches because they lacked WAAS/RAIM capability. After spending the better part of my morning rereading the FAR/AIM, applicable ACs, and several Dynon publications, it appears I was wrong about that assumption. As far as I can tell, despite its technical capabilities (WAAS accuracy GPS), the GPS-2020 isn't certified under anything but the ADS-B TSO. It's legal for supplemental navigation information only, though it's capable of much more if Dynon ever decides to deal with the IFR certification process. I have no idea if the cost/benefit analysis would be worth it, but based on the plethora of available IFR navigators that can be integrated with SkyView, I would guess not.

 

[Spert]

Again, I am NOT asking about what is legal, or certified, or anything else.. I am just asking about the physical capabilities of the Skyview system. I have a Skyview HDX with GPS 2020, and I am installing a VAL NAV 2000 VOR/ILS receiver connected to it. Clearly I can fly an ILS to ILS minimums with vertical guidance.
What I am asking is whether the Skyview hardware/software CAN (will ALLOW me to) create, in the SkyView, a flight plan using GPS waypoints (ARTCC named waypoints, radial/DMD defined waypoints, User defined waypoint, Lat/Longs, whatever), for the enroute portion of the flight and transition to the VAL NAV 2000 controlled published ILS approach upon arrival at IAF?

To discuss the legality anyway... and remember, I would legally be declaring that my VOR receiver (combined with GPS distance), was my "primary" navigation device...
I'm not 100% positive, and I confess I don't actually remember doing this, but I think, technically, as far as legality is concerned, for the enroute portion of IFR flight plan back in the days before GPS, you could just file from one VOR radial/DME point to another, you did not HAVE to file along published defined jet routes and VR routes. But few did that because it was harder to navigate and also, (perhaps), because ATC back then wanted more control over the grouping, clumping together, and flow of commercial traffic. And I don't think you legally needed to have visual contact with the ground to do that.

If you think about the last leg prior to the approach of most flight plans back in the day, they went from a named point, (a VOR/VORTAC or a radial/DME from a VOR), to an IAF, which was generally a VOR/VORTAC itself, but could be radial/DME from a VORTAC or the intersection of two VOR radials). In the second case, that's in essence the exact same thing. That leg was not just flying along a VOR radial, it involved using the changing displayed radial from two VORs, or the changing radial/DME from a VORTAC, to navigate.

VOR point (radial/DME) to point navigation is still as acceptable as it has always been, but with GPS systems allowing direct navigation to virtually any place, it is rare to see anyone navigating that way these days.

 

[preid]

My apologies for not making my question crystal clear at the outset. I should have known there would be a natural inclination to answer the Legal (FAA - Certified) aspects of this instead of the "How does the Skyview work" aspects of it...
Should have made that clearer at the outset

VOR point (radial/DME) to point navigation is still as acceptable as it has always been, but with GPS systems allowing direct navigation to virtually any place, it is rare to see anyone navigating that way these days.

No need to apologize? there are so many questions, as you stated, that ask “how do I do this with skyview”? that turns into legal vs simply answering the questions.. it’s frustrating when someone wants to search for an easy answer and needs to go through dozens of responses (not answering the question) to finally find the answer.