Proprietary IFR GPS?

bd4flyer01

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I am chasing confirmation that GRT is producing their own approach capable certified IFR GPS module. If so, could Dynon be interested in providing one for their systems? Not trying to start a fight, just hoping someone will break the Garmin monopoly on IFR GPS. Doesn't even need to be certified, as far as I am concerned, just safe.
 

bd4flyer01

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It makes me consider that TSO outdated.  Why is the handheld aviation GPS that successfully led me to my destination over 400 miles unsuited to take me the last 3 miles to the threshold? Why should I have to switch to a decades old navigation source (VOR or NDB) for a non-precision approach when I have a GPS that is far more accurate?
Perhaps widespread use of IFR GPS modules such as GRT is providing will make the FAA realize IFR GPS protocol is overly complicated and should be made more accessible.
 

Dynon

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So the FAA IS looking into lowering certification barriers for certain types on instruments. They've seen what portable GPSes have done for the decrease in flight into terrain and are looking into how they might be able extend the availability of affordable technology in all aircraft.

BUT, using GPS for a precision approach is a pretty complex stack of hardware, software, and databases. While we agree that the full stack of TSOs needed are pretty burdensome to meet, and we'd like to see that bar lowered, we also don't think that going against the expressly stated public policies of the FAA is the right way to affect change.
 

mmarien

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I use my handheld GPS all the time for VFR navigation. But after reviewing the three pages of warnings in the manual it's unlikely I'd trust it to navigate through a cloud let alone IMC.
 

GalinHdz

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Ok, what about a C145 device to act just as the position source for ADSB or does that require a C146 device also?
:cool:
 

bd4flyer01

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Which comes first, the TSO or the avionics? For that matter, isn't this all Experimental? Isn't it up to the pilot to decide what is appropriate equipment for the flight?
I remember before GPS became widely available that pilots were installing marine LORAN units in their airplanes. It wasn't for IFR, but it shows that pilots will use non TSO'd devices if it's better than the standard.
  I say there's a market for a LNAV only approach GPS.
Before long, the VOR will go the way of the NDB, and we'll be left with GPS alone. We'll need something cheaper and less complicated than the Garmin IFR boxes.
 

dynonsupport

Dynon Technical Support
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Only C145 is needed for a ADS-B out device. This is NOT a navigator, just a GPS position source. This is what GRT is advertising, and in our opinion, it is only usable for ADS-B out, not navigation. At $3K+, that's an expensive way to get just ADS-B out. We'd love to make one of our own at a more affordable price, but it's a huge challenge and not one of our priorities right now.

In an experimental, only two things need to be certified, your transponder, and your GPS if you want to file IFR. The AIM makes this clear:

1.[ch8194]Authorization to fly approaches under IFR using GPS avionics systems requires that:

(a)[ch8194]A pilot use GPS avionics with TSO- C129, or equivalent, authorization in class A1, B1, B3, C1, or C3; and

(b)[ch8194]All approach procedures to be flown must be retrievable from the current airborne navigation database supplied by the TSO-C129 equipment manufacturer or other FAA approved source. The system must be able to retrieve the procedure by name[ch8201]from the aircraft navigation database, not just as a manually entered series of waypoints.

and:

1.[ch8194]Authorization to conduct any GPS operation under IFR requires that:

(a)[ch8194]GPS navigation equipment used must be approved in accordance with the requirements specified in Technical Standard Order (TSO) TSO-C129, or equivalent, and the installation must be done in accordance with Advisory Circular AC[ch8201]20-138, Airworthiness Approval of Global Positioning System (GPS) Navigation Equipment for Use as a VFR and IFR Supplemental Navigation System, or Advisory Circular AC[ch8201]20-130A, Airworthiness Approval of Navigation or Flight Management Systems Integrating Multiple Navigation Sensors, or equivalent. Equipment approved in accordance with TSO-C115a does not meet the requirements of TSO-C129. Visual flight rules (VFR) and hand-held GPS systems are not authorized for IFR navigation, instrument approaches, or as a principal instrument flight reference. During IFR operations they may be considered only an aid to situational awareness.

It's our opinion that the AIM applies to all aircraft, and thus an experimental needs a certified GPS as well to file IFR. If you want to try and argue that your experimental meets all the TSO requirements for GPS without actually being TSO'd, that may work, but the TSO is 800 pages long for just C145, so that's going to be a lot of reading and even more testing.

LORAN, VOR, and other methods don't have this language in the AIM and thus you are able to put non-TSO'd units in an experimental and use them for primary navigation. In this case, it is up to the pilot to decide, but when it comes to GPS, the FAA has a written policy.

Again, this is all Dynon's opinion of the regulations, and you may have a different interpretation.
 

bd4flyer01

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I want to thank Dynon Support and Dynon Avionics for humoring my spitball suggestions with such patience and forbearance. I have learned a lot from this discussion. One of the reasons I consider my D180 money well spent is the support from Dynon.
Guess I'll have to pony up the money for an out of production but TSO'd box and hope nothing breaks or the manufacturer stops supporting it.  :-/
 

dabear

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I've been thinking about just that. What to do to get an IFR approach/enroute GPS to file /G. I was looking at a used 430W, but it just doesn't make sense. The difference in price between a used 430W and a 650 is too small to buy used versus a new with on-going support, etc.

Just my opinion.
 

GalinHdz

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I've been thinking about just that.  What to do to get an IFR approach/enroute GPS to file /G.  I was looking at a used 430W, but it just doesn't make sense.  The difference in price between a used 430W and a 650 is too small to buy used versus a new with on-going support, etc.

Just my opinion.

Sorry to tell you there are not very many options out there for a "box" that can let you legally file and fly /G. Of those available the Garmin units (430W / 650) are probably the best. Which one you purchase depends on what you think is best for you.
:cool:
 

johnsteichen

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You can fly IFR enroute using a hand held GPS, by giving the controller your heading to destination, and requesting a vector. Obviously you should have a working VOR and an ILS for your approach. Even if you have a certified Garmin 430,530,650,750 you need something to back up that $$$ stuff. If you have to you can navigate via transponder and controller vectors ;).I have done that years ago when P static wiped out my navs and loran for 30 minutes in hard IFR
 

RVDan

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I have had a couple of interesting experiences with 1 VFR GPS and 1 of the popular handhelds, both involved the same thing. I did direct to navigation to an airport (different airports between the handheld and VFR unit) with the flight ending with no airport in sight.

With the VFR unit, the airport ended up being 4.5 NM away, and with the handheld, it was about 3NM away. Interesting that in both cases the GPS showed me in the correct place on the moving map (at the airport) but no airport around.

On the VFR unit, the problem was repeatable and eventually fixed by the manufacturer, database related. On the handheld, the problem wasn't repeatable, even more scary for IFR, but updated software was available and haven't experienced the problem since.

Just saying...
 
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