Saving Lives

[N342P]

It seems that there are many base to final turn fatal accidents and are happening to very experienced pilots... It is usually caused by overshooting the runway centerline and the pilot inadvertently pushes bottom rudder and pulls back on the stick which makes a pretty good spin entry and not recovered without some altitude to work with... It would seem to me that you may be able to prevent some of those by a warning on the SV when the AC is in a slow skidding turn.. It would seem that you have the data available to do that..... The AOL may help but is not the complete answer.

 

[William_Ince]

It seems that there are many base to final turn fatal accidents and are happening to very experienced pilots...   It is usually caused by overshooting the runway centerline and the pilot inadvertently pushes bottom rudder and pulls back on the stick which makes a pretty good spin entry and not recovered without some altitude to work with...  It would seem to me that you may be able to prevent some of those by a warning on the SV when the AC is in a slow skidding turn.. It would seem that you have the data available to do that..... The AOL may help but is not the complete answer.   

"The best safety device in any aircraft is a well trained pilot." *
The moral of the story here is . . . just don't do it.

*FSI

 

[skysailor]

A spin is only possible with BOTH a stalled angle of attack and yaw. The AOA warning (properly calibrated per the manual) absolutely does prevent a spin if heeded.

 

[eddies]

A spin is only possible with BOTH a stalled angle of attack and yaw. The AOA warning (properly calibrated per the manual) absolutely does prevent a spin if heeded.

Sorry to say this is not true, please see a demonstration of this in my RV7, base to final turn helping with inturn rudder, note if we where at 500ft we would be dead;
https://youtu.be/8wPCaazpU5k

 

[swatson999]

A spin is only possible with BOTH a stalled angle of attack and yaw. The AOA warning (properly calibrated per the manual) absolutely does prevent a spin if heeded.

Sorry to say this is not true, please see a demonstration of this in my RV7, base to final turn helping with inturn rudder, note if we where at 500ft we would be dead;
https://youtu.be/8wPCaazpU5k

It's *half* not true...the part about exceeding critical AOA *and* skidding is true...what might not be true is the AOA indicator warning you under such a condition.

Soooooo...never, ever, EVER make skidding turns down close to the ground (and keep your airspeed up).

I don't know if there are "many" base-to-final stall/spin accidents. Anybody have actual data on them? I do know that when they happen, they get LOTS of visibility, both on pilot fora and in the local news (because they happen at airports, there's a good chance a) people saw it and b) it's near cities/towns/homes/buildings/etc.).

 

[N342P]

Yes, it is true that there are many... I lost a good friend and his wife and another friend both pilots highly experienced and current TD pilots. There usually is much more to the scenario that the simple mechanics of it... I long day of flying, high winds and turbulence, distraction in and out of the cockpit, full bladder, small airport with tricky approach, CG, and others..
AOL may help some but is not the answer and it beeps every time you flair to land and soon becomes like my grandfather clock which I dont even notice when it chimes anymore. We get a lot trick things on the SV which are fun but many of us turn off.... I feel strongly that if it is possible by a small effort from the engineers at Dynon a life could be saved.......
If someone feels he is beyond making such a tragic mistake, just turn it off.. It didnt cost you anything..

 

[swatson999]

Well, "many" is a subjective term. From the Nall report:

DESCENT AND APPROACH
(32 TOTAL / 14 FATAL)
Descent and approach accidents are defined as those that occur between the
end of the en route phase of flight and either entry to the airport traffic
pattern (if VFR) or the missed approach point or decision height of an
instrument approach procedure on an IFR flight. Both their numbers and
lethality dropped sharply in 2013 (FIGURE 30); an overall decrease of 37%
year over year included a 42% reduction in fatal accidents. Only 8% of all
fatal accidents fell into this category, the smallest share since 2009.
Inadvertent stalls were implicated in one-third, including half the fatal
accidents (FIGURE 31)

.
So while that's not insignificant, it's also not huuuuuuuge, and probably better overcome with pilot training and awareness than reliance on automation.

Not skidding your turns in the pattern or at low altitude is, after all, basic airmanship.

 

[N342P]

Eddie has an excellent U tube of the scenario which demonstrates the fallacy of the AOL and how quickly it happens. Watch it.....

I HOPE to hear from DYNON whether it is possible to do for us....

 

[swatson999]

So you are envisioning a warning of some kind based on airspeed and slip/skid indication alone?

Interesting idea...I note that the ball can be really "jumpy" at slower speeds in turbulence. There would need to be a pretty sophisticated filtering algorithm to avoid nuisance alerts.

What has been done in the certified world or biz jets or military? Anybody develop something like this for those guys?

 

[N342P]

Not and engineer nor a software designer. I would assume in that situation, that the ball would not be very jumpy at or near its full travel in a turn at low speeds, and may be filtered with just a very small time delay... An (occasional) nuisance alert may be acceptable ?... What inputs they have or need to accomplish it all, I dont know... Maybe not possible....??????? Thanks to all for the input.....