Software updates ---Owner Op not allowed??

[adammwells]

Looing at https://www.dynoncertified.com/software-updates.php owner/op are not allowed to update software.. I haven't seen anyone on this board talking about this. does everyone really take theirs to a FAA Credentialed Mechanic/Repair Station to update?

 

[Rhino]

Depends on the update. Owners/pilots are perfectly free to update databases, maps, charts, etc. on certified aircraft. It's only system software upgrades that have to be done by a certified technician. You also cannot update right away when brand new system software releases come out. They have to be officially approved before certified aircraft can utilize them, so it's usually quite some time before new releases filter down to the certified market. I consider that a good thing, since new releases can, and do, have problems sometimes. AC 43-216 indicates system software is only required to be updated during aircraft maintenance. I would interpret that as annuals or other scheduled maintenance, so there's probably no rush. You might want to get a more definitive answer on that from someone more familiar with certified aircraft, or direct from Dynon. STC holders are granted some leeway in software update requirements. So, if you have a significant problem that needs to be addressed by a new software release, Dynon might be able to help you out. You should contact them for further information.

I am not going to get into what everyone actually does. If anyone flouts the process, I doubt they'd advertise that here. Plus, if you experience a problem when updating the software yourself, you've put yourself in a very precarious position.

 

[Raisbeck]

I asked about this (in the wrong forum) when it first came out. Basically, the authorized dealer who installed my HDX is a 8 hour round trip from here, and the local IA/AP aren't too keen on tinkering with software that they don't really know. Plus, the rather high potential for unforeseen glitches in a new release.

I've been waiting to see what everybody else's experience is before I tackle it

 

[RAS]

Unfortunately for me/the rest of us who are very interested in this thread, this is probably a thread that could be filled with much more useful information. Our situation is very similar to that of Raisbeck. Our A&P is phenomenal, but he does not do software updates. Is it possible for an owner to update the software during an owner assisted annual and get the requisite sign-off?

 

[tniel7331]

Owner assisted annual ?
Do you do your own Dental work also

 

[Rhino]

Lots of folks do owner assisted annuals. It's a common practice for certified aircraft.

RAS, if you have an authorized person who is willing to sign off the update after you do it, that would probably be legal. I tend to doubt you'll find anyone who will do that though. What more useful information are you looking for?

 

[airguy]

Owner assisted annual ?
Do you do your own Dental work also

I don't even have an "assist" on my annual, I do it all myself including the signoff.

My dentist is pretty good, too.

 

[RAS]

Owner assisted annual ?
Do you do your own Dental work also

You have been very helpful on the forum to many and you definitely seem to be above average in your knowledge, so I am not sure what prompted your unhelpful response.

But I think I know what you were getting at. Specifically in regard to owner assisted annuals which was "a thing" many many many years before I even contemplated getting a license. In my lifetime, I have turned a wrench or two on autos, boats, harvesters, various tractors, fabricated custom farm equipment and at least a couple of days each week or month depending on the time of the year, I drive a tractor or fix & maintain them and the associated implements as necessary. I do lots of other things that people hire mechanics, welders, contractors and handymen to do and I enjoy these sorts of activities.

I have assisted on the last three annuals and I have both enjoyed and learned quite a bit about this 1960's model 172. Additionally, I am pretty certain that our A&P likes that we do much of the tedious work of removing and replacing inspection plates and tasks that do not require any great level of competency to perform.

RAS, if you have an authorized person who is willing to sign off the update after you do it, that would probably be legal. I tend to doubt you'll find anyone who will do that though. What more useful information are you looking for?

Until this particular thread, I thought owner assisted annuals were more commonplace and like airguy alluded, there are tens of thousands of pilots flying Experimental/Amateur built aircraft that are eligible to work on their own planes.

In regard to updating the Dynon software, I would never do anything that would devalue or jeopardize the airworthiness of the plane. But I have built computers, done a little bit of programming, built websites and a couple of computers, flashed BIOS and installed and updated countless operating systems and I just don't see that updating the Dynon software takes any exceptional skills.

As a result, I would think there would be guidance specific for people in our situation. Of course, we will work with our A&P on this when/if we do update, but I "suspect" that there are other Certified owners updating their own software in some way or form and that would be nice to know.

 

[skysailor]

Unfortunately for your argument, logic is not what it comes down to. The FAR's are very clear about who is allowed to do which activities to a certified aircraft. The list of maintenance activities an owner/pilot may perform on a certified aircraft is extremely short and does not allow firmware updates. If you fly a certified aircraft you are required to have an FAA A&P certificate holder do this update. Doing it yourself is not allowed by FAR and will violate the airworthiness of the aircraft which will invalidate your insurance as well. If you want to choose which maintenance activities you can undertake based on your abilities, build or purchase an Experimental. You can then do ANY maintenance you choose. Only the annual condition inspection would require anyone with A&P certificate.

 

[RAS]

Unfortunately for your argument, logic is not what it comes down to. The FAR's are very clear about who is allowed to do which activities to a certified aircraft. The list of maintenance activities an owner/pilot may perform on a certified aircraft is extremely short and does not allow firmware updates. If you fly a certified aircraft you are required to have an FAA A&P certificate holder do this update. Doing it yourself is not allowed by FAR and will violate the airworthiness of the aircraft which will invalidate your insurance as well. If you want to choose which maintenance activities you can undertake based on your abilities, build or purchase an Experimental. You can then do ANY maintenance you choose. Only the annual condition inspection would require anyone with A&P certificate.

Thank you, that was kind of the reply I was hoping for skysailor. I don't know what I do not know and I can tell you and everyone else, "I don't know" should be my middle name.

It is my understanding that a person can perform aviation mechanic duties without an A&P certificate as long as they are working under the supervision of a certificated A&P mechanic. So under those conditions, would an owner working under the supervision of an A&P be able to perform a software update?

I am not looking for any angle or shortcuts to bypass FAA regulations, but I am ignorant and I am hoping this thread will flesh out all legal possibilities. And as I previously shared, I would never do anything that would jeopardize the airworthiness of the plane.

 

[Marc_J._Zeitlin]

It is my understanding that a person can perform aviation mechanic duties without an A&P certificate as long as they are working under the supervision of a certificated A&P mechanic. So under those conditions, would an owner working under the supervision of an A&P be able to perform a software update?

You are correct, and yes - under the supervision of an A&P, you can perform any tasks that the A&P is legal to perform.

 

[airguy]

Only the annual condition inspection would require anyone with A&P certificate.

Only if you purchase the airplane. If you build it yourself, you can obtain the Repairmans Certificate and sign off your own annual.

 

[Danerazz]

It is my understanding that a person can perform aviation mechanic duties without an A&P certificate as long as they are working under the supervision of a certificated A&P mechanic. So under those conditions, would an owner working under the supervision of an A&P be able to perform a software update?

Yes.

The FARs do not specify who has to physically do any work. They specify who can return the aircraft/engine/appliance to service (by signing the logbook). You can do anything the A&P who signs the book is allowed to sign for, as long as he/she inspects your work and agrees it was properly performed and agrees to sign the book (hopefully all BEFORE you do the work…)

FAR 43.9 states (in part):
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.

Note paragraph 3: if you do the work, your name should be in the log, and then the mechanic (the person approving the work in paragraph 4) signs it.

 

[Danerazz]

The list of maintenance activities an owner/pilot may perform on a certified aircraft is extremely short and does not allow firmware updates.

While I do agree that operating software/firmware updates on certified aircraft is not in the “owner/operator” realm, the rest of your statement is misleading.

Please research the 2009 “Coleal letter” and response from the FAA. The FAA interpreted the “list” of preventive maintenance a pilot may perform in the FARs (part 43, appendix A) as representative, not prescriptive. Meaning just because it doesn’t specifically say you can replace the reading light bulb, you probably can (depending on he complexity, but we won’t say what is “too complex”).

 

[Rhino]

Owner-assisted annual inspections: Are they allowed?

With limited exceptions, only a certified mechanic holding an inspection authorization can perform an annual inspection in accordance with FAR 91.409(a)(1). Thus, unless the owner-pilot also holds an IA, he or she is not permitted to assist with the inspection function of an annual. However, he...

pilot-protection-services.aopa.org

You can perform tasks the A&P typically performs incidental to the inspection, but you can't perform the specific 'inspection' tasks yourself. But I think we're getting off track with terminology here. Although updating the system software can be done in conjunction with the annual, it is not part of the annual inspection itself. Different rules apply. But I think all this is academic unless you can find an authorized individual to sign off the software update after you perform it. Without that, all this is moot.

 

[RAS]

Thank you to each and every one of you who took time to reply to this thread. I am better informed as a result and I am sure that if someone else searches out this thread, they will find information that will be helpful to them.

I will follow-up if/when we pursue the update via an owner assisted annual. By the way, the reason I mentioned doing this at the owner assisted annual is that is hopefully the next time we see him professionally ;-) We have some sort of transponder issue to resolve and we need a servo shear screw replaced and the aforementioned software update... so we may end up making the trek to the avionics installer. Thanks again.

 

[Rhino]

EDIT: Disregard. Wrong thread.

 

[rjones560]

Owner assisted annual ?
Do you do your own Dental work also

There are owner operators that are far more qualified to work on their aircraft than people with the certificates. Skill and knowledge don’t always go with the license. There are lots of A&P’s that I would not let touch my aircraft.