SV AP panel mount install

LouRubin

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I already have a relay system installed for my trim motor . I assume i wont need the trim amp option ?
Im thinking pins 3 and 4 will go directly to the relay to actuate the trim motor?
Will I have the auto trim function with out the trim amp option?
 

Rhino

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If your trim motors draw more than 2 amps, you need the SV-TRIMAMP adapter, whether you have relays or not. The pinouts are in Table 98 and Figure 215 of the current install manual, revision AM (pages 18-5 through 18-7). Assuming you're referring to the pins on the autopilot panel D15 connector (you didn't specify), no, pins 3 and 4 don't go to the trim motors.
 

Rhino

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If your trim motors draw more than two amps, you're supposed to have the TRIMAMP adapter. It adapts the amperage. That's one of the things it's for. That's in the install manual too. Relays don't change amperage, so having them doesn't change that.
 
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Rhino

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To directly answer your other question, auto trim will work without the TRIMAMP if your trim motors do not draw more than 2 amps. If they draw more that that, you will not have auto trim without the TRIMAMP.
 

LouRubin

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I have a circuit board with relays installed already to actuate the trim motors
 

Rhino

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Thanks for the clarification. In that case you likely will not have auto trim.
 

Rhino

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To be clear, Skyview signals used to drive servos use pulse width modulation (PWM). It isn't a simple turn the motor on, turn the motor off situation. Auto-trim changes the pulses to slow down or speed up trim response. If that will work for you really depends on how your relays respond to changes in PWM, if at all. Since relays aren't designed to use pulses, they may not even work well for normal trim, much less auto trim. And if these are mechanical relays we're talking about, they're probably going to wear out much faster by receiving PWM inputs. You can experiment if you want. You may get lucky. But if I were you, I'd just ditch the relays and get TRIMAMPs (you need one for each servo)
 

LouRubin

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It appears the Trim Amp units are on back order so this phase of the installation is on hold.I presume I can leave the wiring as is until they come in? I understand I won’t have auto trim capability until the Trim Amp unit
Is wired in. Will the other functions work?As always I appreciate your feedback
 

Rhino

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It's possible your auto trim will work. I just don't think it's likely. Everything else should work fine with the relays for now, assuming the wiring is correct.
 

Rhino

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Maybe Dynon will chime in with clarification.

If you're a true electronics geek who likes to tinker, Dynon used to provide a guide to building your own TRIMAMP using a Pololu Dual/Single Motor Driver Carrier TB67H420FTG. I'm not sure if that's still available here, but I have a copy of it.
 

Marc_J._Zeitlin

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To be clear, Skyview signals used to drive servos use pulse width modulation (PWM). It isn't a simple turn the motor on, turn the motor off situation. Auto-trim changes the pulses to slow down or speed up trim response. If that will work for you really depends on how your relays respond to changes in PWM, if at all. Since relays aren't designed to use pulses, they may not even work well for normal trim, much less auto trim. And if these are mechanical relays we're talking about, they're probably going to wear out much faster by receiving PWM inputs. You can experiment if you want. You may get lucky. But if I were you, I'd just ditch the relays and get TRIMAMPs (you need one for each servo)
Some terminology here - I think by "servos" you're referring to the trim motors, which are almost always just 12V DC motors - not "servos".

I also think you're conflating two functions here - first, the "Auto-Trim", which merely trims out the force on the A/P servo, _IF_ you enable the capability in setup (I do not, as I fly IFR and think it's asking for trouble in icing conditions, per Colgan, but for VFR only, autotrim is fine).

Secondly, the "Trim Motor Speed" control for varying trim motor speeds dependent upon Airspeed (See pages 18-7 through 18-10 of version AM of the installation manual), which is what's controlled by PWM. One can set all speeds to 100% and not make them speed dependent, in which case there will be no pulses and the full voltage will always be delivered to the trim motor.

"Auto-Trim" is independent of "Trim Motor Speed" control - it just activates the trim system automatically to trim out servo force when the A/P servos are engaged. If manual trim works correctly (push the buttons at whatever IAS) then Auto Trim will work as well.

Now, if this were my plane, and my trim motor pulled < 2A, I'd get rid of the relay board and just use the A/P controller to run the trim. But if it does pull more than 2A and you can't get a TRIMAMP yet, just use the relay deck to run the trim motors until the Trimamp is available, then replace the relay deck with the A/P controller and Trimamp.

For the OP, you cannot use the A/P controller to control a relay board. Pins 3-6 and 10-13 are INPUTS to the A/P controller from the trim switches - they're not outputs to the motor. The motor outputs are pins 7-8 and 14-15, and switch polarity to determine motor direction, which doesn't work when running a relay deck - the relay deck uses the same types of grounded input pins as the A/P Controller. The A/P controller replaces the relay deck, but can only run a 2A motor, hence the need for the trimamp.
 

LouRubin

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Yes that was my plan It will be interesting to see what capability's I have with out the trip amp
 

LouRubin

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Im going to leave the harness out going to the trim relays from the AP Panel. I draw 5 amps on each 12 v trim motor so that wont work . Any idea when the trim amp will become avialable?
 

Marc_J._Zeitlin

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Im going to leave the harness out going to the trim relays from the AP Panel. I draw 5 amps on each 12 v trim motor so that wont work . Any idea when the trim amp will become avialable?
Well, have you read the specifications for the TrimAmp on page 23-17 of the install manual? The maximum motor supply is 3A (not really sure what the point of the thing is, if all it does is increase the maximum motor current from 2A to 3A - that's hardly a large increase). The total current supply of the TrimAmp is 5A, biut that's 3A for the trim motor and 3A for the clutch (but 5A total - go figure) - if your trim system doesn't have a clutch, then the max supply is 3A. So if your motors draw 5A (and I can't imagine what kind of airplane you're flying where the trim motors need to draw 5A - that's a huge current draw for a trim motor), the TrimAmp isn't going to help you any.

If your motors actually do draw 5A (I'm skeptical, but who knows) you may want to consider this:


which has speed control and also can source up to 10A. You could drive this with the A/P controller for auto-trim functionality, as long as you don't try to use the A/P controller to do the speed control.
 

LouRubin

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Marc
I’m flying a Lancair ES.
I pulled the specs and confirmed the trim motors are a 5 amp draw.I know another Lancair pilot without relays using the the SV panel without the trim amp with no issues so far. Being that I do have relays the Safety trim device could be a viable option to replace the relays and handle the higher amp draw.

Thanks for your help Marc.
Yes I did read the Trim Amp specs
 

Rhino

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Interesting. The TCW spec is 10 amps max, but I wonder if that's continuous. The Pololu Motor Driver Carrier Dynon used to give info for was rated at 3.4 amps continuous, but would go up to 9 amps intermittently. Makes me wonder who is quoting continuous specs vs surge specs.
 

Marc_J._Zeitlin

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Marc
I’m flying a Lancair ES.
I pulled the specs and confirmed the trim motors are a 5 amp draw.
Ahem. If you review the Lancair ES General Wiring Document:


you can see that the airplane uses "MAC" servos - now "Ray Allen". The fact that the document recommends 5A fuses/CB's to protect the WIRING to the servos is NOT an indication of how much current the servos (what RA calls them, for @Rhino's sake :) ) draw. None of the RA trim servos draw more than 1A, which is why the A/P controller will work fine without the TrimAmp, and without the current relay board that you have.

Go wire your trim into the A/P controller (after verifying that the builder did actually use MAC/Ray Allen actuators) and don't bother with the TrimAmp.
 
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