Dual Frequency ADS-B Receiver

[mikeschumann]

I just got my new Phoenix Motorglider with a fully 2020 compatible ADS-B IN / OUT setup. It's absolutely awesome.

One thing that I noticed immediately, is that when I am in the pattern at a remote airport, a lot of the traffic disappears, apparently because the aircraft are to low to be picked up by ATC radar.

With the current Dynon ADS-B receiver being UAT only, I can not see other 1090ES equipped aircraft in my vicinity if either I, or the other aircraft are too low to be visible to an ADS-B ground station. As 2020 approaches, this is going to be a big problem at remote locations, as a very big percentage of ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft will be using 1090ES (as does Dynon).

Having a dual frequency ADS-B receiver solves this problem and will ensure that the Dynon system reliably shows virtually 100% of all ADS-B OUT equipped traffic regardless of the availability of ADS-B ground stations.

In addition, this would provide ADS-B traffic visibility in Europe and the rest of the world where UAT is not implemented at all.

Dual frequency ADS-B receivers are becoming quite common. Providing similar functionality needs to be on the Skyview enhancement list.

Otherwise, I LOVE your product!!!!

 

[vlittle]

I think that there is a bit more to this.

Let's say that you have an ADS-B receiver with UAT-in only. As long as you are near an ADS-B groundstation, and above the minimum altitude, you have traffic.

As you said, if you drop too low, you will lose traffic. If, however, you also have 1090ES in, you'll see 1090ES traffic all of the time.

Now, if you also have mode-C (passive) monitoring, you'll also see any non -ADSB equipped traffic that are illuminated by radar or TCAS.

So why do you care about mode-c traffic? If you fly in Canada, we only have mode-C for now. When Canada introduces ADS-B it will likely only be 1090ES. UAT is unlikely.

Bottom line, if you want to fly in other parts of the world, 1090ES coupled with Mode C passive is the way to go... And it helps a lot in the USA as well.

 

[jakej]

So Vern, the obvious answer is for Dynon to make a 1090 IN unit - I'd pay more if need be for one

 

[rvator51]

Yes, Dynon - just do it!

 

[William_Ince]

Yes, Dynon - just do it!

x2

 

[GalinHdz]

Yes, Dynon - just do it!

x3

 

[dwightsmall]

Today I departed Ryan Field (KRYN-near Tucson) on a short flight to Marana (KAVQ). Shortly after takeoff, high speed traffic popped up on my SV-1000 at my 10 o'clock and would pass a mile or two ahead of me and about 2000 feet above. The time interval between when it showed up and when it passed my 12 o'clock was probably a minute or less so, in my opinion, the 15 mile ADSB limitation doesn't allow enough margin. I feel the need for a 1090 receiver. Dual Band, Dynon? I have the Dynon UAT, SV-261 Xponder and the GPS-2020.

 

[dynonsupport]

15 NM in 60 seconds is 900 knots. Traffic warnings only occur when you can collide within the next 20 seconds, so you need a closure speed of 2,700 knots to not be able to get a 20 second warning with 15 NM of visibility. Even with that, a plane that is 2,000 above you won't trigger a TA even if it flies right over you.

Given any airplane going 900+ knots is a military airplane, and they don't have ADS-B yet, I'm not sure what 1090 reception would have gotten you. You were relying on TIS-B for this target and TIS-B is limited to 15NM by the ground station.

Also, traffic is generally limited to 250 knots below 10,000 feet.

 

[lgabriel]

15 NM in 60 seconds is 900 knots. Traffic warnings only occur when you can collide within the next 20 seconds, so you need a closure speed of 2,700 knots to not be able to get a 20 second warning with 15 NM of visibility. Even with that, a plane that is 2,000 above you won't trigger a TA even if it flies right over you.

Given any airplane going 900+ knots is a military airplane, and they don't have ADS-B yet, I'm not sure what 1090 reception would have gotten you. You were relying on TIS-B for this target and TIS-B is limited to 15NM by the ground station.

Also, traffic is generally limited to 250 knots below 10,000 feet.

Isn't it more likely that the traffic was already inside the bubble, and simply not displayed until Dwight climbed high enough to have UAT reception?  I don't think anyone is bombing around Tucson at 900 kts.

Regardless, I think we've gotten slightly off topic.  This thread is a request for a dual-band ADS-B solution, and there are numerous scenarios where that would be beneficial. I think the thrust of this thread is that the SV-ADSB-470 is more expensive and less capable than almost every other ADS-B receiver on the market.

 

[GalinHdz]

I think the thrust of this thread is that the SV-ADSB-470 is more expensive and less capable than almost every other ADS-B receiver on the market.

Unless they come up with a ADS-B IN solution that shares the data with anything logged into the SkyView WIFI. Like maybe an WIFI ADS-B box.

  :

 

[William_Ince]

I think the thrust of this thread is that the SV-ADSB-470 is more expensive and less capable than almost every other ADS-B receiver on the market.

Unless they come up with a ADS-B IN solution that shares the data with anything logged into the SkyView WIFI. Like maybe an WIFI ADS-B box.

  :

Bingo!

 

[Joe48041]

I will not buy a SkyView system unless they soon come out with a dual band 978 & 1090 ADS-B receiver.  If I follow the Alaskan highway across Canada where there are no ADS-B ground stations, I want to see 1090ES traffic.
  If not wanting to design their own dual band receiver, how about making the SkyView system compatible with third party ADS-B receivers like the Stratux ($120).

 

[dynonsupport]

Joe,
We're always learning about different use cases for our products, and that's an interesting one where there will never be ADS-B ground coverage.

Do you have any data about what percentage of aircraft are equipped with 1090ES in that area? Down in the lower 48, it's still under 5%.

 

[Joe48041]

Quote from page 87 of May issue of AOPA Pilot about ADS-B

"according to the FAA, which estimates GA aircraft equipage at 11 percent to 17.5 percent of the fleet."

I assume that is for the whole USA.  Who knows what percentage fly the Alaskan Hwy.  I live in MI and sometimes fly across Ontario Canada (no ADS-B gnd stations) to NY or PA.
  I plan to install ADS-B in & out this year.  The system that I install will receive from, and display aircraft transmitting on 1090ES.  Will Dynon have that feature?  I do not want to spend several aviation units on an avionics brand that will not display some traffic that other brands will display.
Joe

 

[Joe48041]

Knowledgeable potential customers want dual band ADS-B receivers. If Dynon does not give them what they want, they will shop elsewhere. How hard can it be to design a product similar to the GDL-39 and sell it for a similar price? When will it be available, Dynon?

 

[dlloyd]

Joe,
I too have asked Dynon for a dual band receiver as to display traffic directly from other equipped aircraft.  One valid point they make concerning a single band receiver is that even with dual band you will never, never be able to display all the traffic that is out there.  By 2020 most general aviation airplanes in the US will be UAT out equipped, not 1090ES. Oh, the FAA number you quoted, is that 1090 only or all ADSB?

 

[jakej]

There is another 'world' called the rest of us & we use 1090  & UAT is not used, & never will be, here.

 

[Joe48041]

FAA number you quoted, is that 1090 only or all ADSB?

I assume for all ADS-B.
I read someplace that 3/4 of ADS-B out installations are 1090.  But I do not know if that is for GA or all aircraft.
  Regardless of the statistics or pro-con arguments, I want a dual band ADS-B receiver that is compatible with whatever glass panel display that I purchase.  Before I will consider the SkyView, I need to know:
1.  Is Dynon developing a dual band ADS-B receiver?
2.  If so, when is it expected to be offered for sale?
I know that companies are reluctant to make predictions and promises because deadlines might not be met.  On the other hand, silence will make me look at other brands.

 

[n456ts]

Do you have any data about what percentage of aircraft are equipped with 1090ES in that area? Down in the lower 48, it's still under 5%.

It's illogical to even consider the current percentage of 1090ES operators at this time.  These systems are intended to be used for longer then a couple years....They aren't iPhones.  Dynon knows very well that the ADS-B out fleet will skyrocket in the next couple years. 

The unusually strong resistance to the concept of having 1090ES-in is pretty disturbing and out of touch with customer interest & reality. 

 

[skysailor]

If you are counting on virtually all GA aircraft having ADSB out in 2020 you may be very disappointed. It is a fact this need only be done by those who are currently mandated to have Mode C. The vast majority of the country can be flown without Mode C now and also without ADSB even in 2020.