Engine Monitor add on and more questions?

[Brantel]

I assume that the engine monitor will be an add on to the base system and will be some sort of black box/breakout box that can hide behind the panel.  Is this a fair assumption?

How far behind the initial release of the base screens and ARHS will the engine monitor be?

Will all of these modules be using the DASB as the communication network?

Will the HS34 and the AP74&76 become obsolete for this new architecture or will they still be required/compliment the new system?

Will the radio/transponder interface only work with the planned Dynon products or continue to work with radio's such as the SL-30 and the G430W?

Is the plan to bring these things up to the ability to create a fully redundant system in regards to dual ARHS, dual networking, etc along with redundant serial port inputs to redundantly support external data sources in a dual screen setup if one screen dies?  

Will the serial interfaces for externals be on the screens or in a separate black box behind the panel?

What will drive the FD, HITS, ext? Are you going to be adding flight planning, synthetic approach capability and AP sequencing features similar to GRT and AFS or is all of this stuff going to be driven strickly by external data sources?

 

[dynonsupport]

I assume that the engine monitor will be an add on to the base system and will be some sort of black box/breakout box that can hide behind the panel.  Is this a fair assumption?

Yes. The AHRS and EMS boxes will be seperate from the screens. Think of this system as completely modular. By itself, the screen is a moving map (with the databases installed, and a GPS input (yes, we will have a GPS receiver/antenna available))

How far behind the initial release of the base screens and ARHS will the engine monitor be?

The product doesn't have a name or price yet, so we can't answer a timeline question like that as of yet. We'd like to have the EMS on the day we first ship, but that may not happen.

Will all of these modules be using the DASB as the communication network?

It is a redundant, enhanced version of DSAB. Most current products will not work on this bus. The AP servos will. You will not be able to share the bus between current products and the new system.

Will the HS34 and the AP74&76 become obsolete for this new architecture or will they still be required/compliment the new system?

Because these new screens have knobs and joysticks, the enhanced UI from the HS34 and AP74 will not be needed in this system. The AP76 is still up in ther air, we'll need to work through the UI and decide if we need a dedicated panel like that for the advanced functions.

Will the radio/transponder interface only work with the planned Dynon products or continue to work with radio's such as the SL-30 and the G430W?

It will work with some external radios (like the SL-30) in the beginning and then our products farther out.

Is the plan to bring these things up to the ability to create a fully redundant system in regards to dual ARHS, dual networking, etc along with redundant serial port inputs to redundantly support external data sources in a dual screen setup if one screen dies?  

Yes.

Will the serial interfaces for externals be on the screens or in a separate black box behind the panel?

Each screen has 3 serial ports.

What will drive the FD, HITS, ext?  Are you going to be adding flight planning, synthetic approach capability and AP sequencing features similar to GRT and AFS or is all of this stuff going to be driven strickly by external data sources?

The map already has basic flight planning, and it will expand. We also already have HITS for enroute courses. The plan is to do full IFR flight planning (of course, you'll need a certified GPS source like a 430 to actually file /G). External data sources will be secondary goals for us, not the primary source.

 

[Alfio]

<Posted by: Dynon Support

It is a redundant, enhanced version of DSAB. Most current products will not work on this bus. The AP servos will. You will not be able to share the bus between current products and the new system. >

I presently have a D100 and D120. I may consider upgrading at one point (still have yet to make first flight). Support of legacy systems is something to consider (via DSAB), as I could decide to upgrade the D100 with mapping, and leave the D120 as the engine monitor.

One of the attributes that attracted me to Dynon was support of legacy equipment, such as D10A inter-operable with D100. I believe you should consider to have the D1XX/D10 line have some level of interoperability with the new system.

Also, will development of features and upgrades stop for the D100 series after the autopilot? Again, I saw in Dynon a company that would support its legacy equipment as much as possible. In this case, I really don't see the older products as legacy equipment, but more as a different product line. I hope support and development will continue on this line of products.

Just food for though for the marketing guys. You know that the engineering guys can do anything if you whip them hard enough .. err, ahh, I mean, challenge them

 

[Thomas_Schaad]

I see it as a completely new system. Will Dynon go on with products as the D10A or the EMS10 or will they eventually disapear? I would be glad to see my panel supported with new firmware, spareparts etc. for quite a while

Kind regrads

Thomas

 

[PhantomPholly]

I, too, would like to see it compatible with the older systems. What if someone wants the new system plus a D10A? Or, you have a D180 and want to display engine info on the new screen (a likely future scenario for myself)?

 

[dynonsupport]

The EFIS-D100, EMS-D120, FlightDEK-D180, EFIS-D10A, and EMS-D10 will all still be for sale for the foreseeable future. We are not canceling any of our currect products. Over time, the D100, D120, and D180 will likely phase out in favor of the next generation system equivalents, which will have all of the same capabilities and much more.

All of our products will be supported for years - with repairs, technical support, and any bug fixes that are needed. There is no way that Dynon would ever stop supporting a past customer. We think one of the reasons we've been successful is that we've tried our best to support all of our customers, and that will continue to be the case. Call us with a question or a repair on a EFIS-D10, a product we haven't sold for over 4 years, and we'll still help with any question or problem you may have.

That being said, we are going to be winding down new feature development on the current series of products after the autopilot is released. After four years, we're reaching the limits of what we're able to do with the computing power in the current products. The major features that our customers have been asking for - such as synthetic vision, moving map, thin screens, etc - are not features that we can implement on our current hardware.

We've also learned a lot with the last generation of products, and to remain competitive we need to take all of that knowledge and translate it into the best avionics we can possibly build. To do this effectivlely and efficiently, we have we have to draw some lines between what we have now and what we'll be building next. For example, making DSAB work between the current and new products would be a huge software effort. If we put our limited resources there, development all of our products would slow down, and we're already a busy bunch over here.


We believe there's an easier way to cross the compatibility border, and that's the offer for trade-in credit on old units. If you are interested in the new system, then we'll take what you have and give you credit towards the next system. It's win-win: you get the new system, a new warranty, and we get to focus on our new product development.

We think that this trade-in program is a type of support that is uncommon in fast-moving technology (will Apple give you credit for your 2 year old iPod, or Dell for your old lappy?), but we want to do it anyway. We really do appreciate all of your business, and we want you to continue to grow with us. What's better than being sure that your past financial investment will continue to be an investment in the latest products from Dynon?

 

[PhantomPholly]

For example, making DSAB work between the current and new products would be a huge software effort. If we put our limited resources there, development all of our products would slow down, and we're already a busy bunch over here.

That makes sense if you are writing a whole new DSAB software module. What about including your existing DSAB logic as a parallel process in your new product and have dedicated "Legacy DSAB" pinout that can at least receive the data from older units?  That doesn't seem like it would be as large of an effort from a programming standpoint - just passing values from one parallel process into your new data store...

We believe there's an easier way to cross the compatibility border, and that's the offer for trade-in credit on old units. If you are interested in the new system, then we'll take what you have and give you credit towards the next system. It's win-win: you get the new system, a new warranty, and we get to focus on our new product development.

That is quite generous (and I'm not being sarcastic - most companies just say "we don't support that any more").  

Will the new system accept the current connector pinouts, or will those who upgrade need to re-wire all their sensors and other connection?  Without pin compatibility, the challenge of upgrading will be rather significant for us amateurs.

Really - I'm very excited about the new line and it reaffirms my decision to purchase my D-180/HS34. I've always assumed that at some point I would move them to the right panel and put something bigger/better/faster on the left side, and now I have a better idea what that "something" will be.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Alfio]

We think that this trade-in program is a type of support that is uncommon in fast-moving technology (will Apple give you credit for your 2 year old iPod, or Dell for your old lappy?), but we want to do it anyway.

Just to provide a balanced argument .... your competition such as Grand Rapids and Trutrak (I believe ...) offer trade-in on their equipment (where you only pay the retail difference to upgrade - seems you get 100% back). Not saying you should embark on the same type of program, however they were left out from your discussion above.

Apple and Dell are high volume consumer products, and cannot be compared to the homebuilt EFIS market.

I already have a D100 and D120, and am happy with my choice, product and features so far. Would have been nice if there was a progressive upgrade story, instead of a "forklift upgrade".

Just my 2 cents. :

 

[dynonsupport]

TruTrak gets a lot of credit for "full trade in value" but that's because all of their upgrades are basically software, which we almost never charge for at all. They don't have to replace your servos when you go from one head unit to another, and in a lot of cases, all they are doing is charging you for a software upgrade. Now if they would let you trade in a whole set of servos and a control unit for an EFIS without servos, that would be impressive. I doubt they will, since they would eat a huge loss in that case. They probably weren't even thinking "EFIS" when they made the 100% trade-in statement.

GRT has been similarly creative. Rather than integrating the EMS into their EFIS for $600-$800 more like we do, they leave the EMS external, poorly integrated, but then they don't have to worry about someone trading it in. They also charge a lot more than we do for their base products, which allows them to build in future margin loss. Finally, they don't give full credit. Order a $2K unit today (no AHRS), and ask them how much it is to upgrade to a $4K unit. It's $2,400, so they are charging $400 for the upgrade. Go from one $2K unit to another $2K unit and it's $600. It's still great service, but 100% trade in it is not.

Promising full credit for trade ins long before the future is known really limts a company's future decisions, because they have to price future products and make design choices based on their past products. What Dynon does is announce upgrades and do everything we can to support past customers as it makes sense. We only charge the same $200 to go to a bright screen as we charge a new customer even though it costs us way more. We upgraded D10's to D10A's for $350 or less, which was only $50 more than the price change from D10 to D10A. I think we have a history of doing everything we can to both support our customers, keep our prices low, and stay in business. Since we don't build in margin when we first sell a product (just like Dell and Apple don't) we can't always give you 100%, but we try.

 

[RandyC]

I am a Blue Mountain orphan. I built my airplane around their equipment and now I am looking to your equipment as a way to maintain most of the same functionality. I have EFIS ONE, EFIS Lite, and full auto pilot.

To make the transition to your equipment, I can wait on the auto pilot if needed. What I cannot wait for is the EMS capability. Once I rip out my EFIS One, I have to immediatley replace the engine monitor functions or not fly.

Can you give me some updated information about whether you will be releasing the EMS portion of the Skyview system when it is first released in December?

Randy

 

[Jamie]

Hi RandyC,

I think your answer is here in the Skyview FAQ. Q9

How far behind the initial release of the base screens and AHRS will the engine monitor be?

We plan to have the displays, ADAHRS, engine module shipping together.

Jamie

 

[dynonsupport]

We will. It'll be light a few things compared to our current EMS that we'll add back in software shortly thereafter (like the fuel flow based fuel computer), but, all of your core engine instruments will be there.

 

[RandyC]

The present EMS allows three auxillary inputs I believe. Are there plans for the new EMS to be more flexible in layout and perhaps have more auxilary input capability?

I ask this as I use a non standard engine, Subaru, and thus my monitoring needs are unusual.

Thanks for the previous response.

Randy C

 

[dynonsupport]

SkyView allows basically 20 general purpose inputs. Instead of having a specific oil temp input, you can hook an oil temp sender to any of the 20 inputs and tell the system where you hooked it. It also has much easier ways for us (or even you) to make your own sensor support.

Additionally, the EMS screen is totally customizable in layout, instead of fixed locations for display elements.

 

[RandyC]

Hey! That sounds incredibly good to me. It will alow me to monitor all the different items that become involved in experimenting with alternative engines and various configurations like turbo and non turbo. I like what I am hearing.

Randy

 

[RandyC]

Can one of the general inputs available be configured for my air fuel ratio gauge?  It uses a .1 to 5 volt linear signal to display the air fuel ration from 0 to about 20 to 1 on the display.

Randy

 

[dynonsupport]

We do actually have a way for users to make their own gauges and sensor calibrations, so yes, you could hook that up.