Help me decide on a backup

lancair360

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Oct 19, 2020
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Dual skyview 7". Single AHRS. autopilot and all that.

I have an analog airspeed indication still in the panel I'd like to replace with something to act purely as a backup PFD. I'm down to the Dynon D3 pocket panel and the Uavionix AV-30-E. Read all the literature, know everyhting about both, but I'm torn.

What say you, and show your work. This isn't a poll! Thanks.
 

Marc_J._Zeitlin

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If it's between the D3 and the AV-30, I'd go with the AV30 hands down, as it's got Air Data input as well. If you're going to fly IFR, then having more useful data in your backup is better. If you're VFR only, then I wouldn't bother getting either - just look out the window if you're VFR.

My $0.02.
 

tedbain

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I have dual Skyview classic with dual ADHARS. Single alternator and battery. I have the D2 as backup and only use it when flying IFR. I chose it because with it and iPad/Foreflight I can get down with a complete electrical failure. I know the AV-30 has a backup battery but it is still connected to ship's power. My paranoia knows no bounds.
 

n144sh

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AV30 hands down for me. Wish it were an option for Skyview certifiied systems.
 

lancair360

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Yeah the AV30 does have air data and I'm putting it in a hole where I have an airspeed indicator now so no plumbing required. Not sure if I'd run a wire from the the Garmin GPS175 to it or not, only becuase I just installed it and don't want to dig through wires! Not really familiar with the Uavionix stuff except for their ADS-B solutions so thanks for the input gang.
 

DBRV10

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If I was thinking something similar, and I am, and have ben for a long time, I would hold my horses for just a tiny bit longer and not buy anything else. The D3 is great for portability, but I know what you want and I strongly suggest waiting a bit. :)

No questions, please.....just watch this space.
 

lancair360

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Order placed but it’s on back order so I got about a two week window for something to happen. No regrets, the AV-30 looks great.
 

Dynon101

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Question: If the airplane has dual SV displays with ADAHRS and each has a backup battery then is there a significant reason to need a third "backup" attitude indicator?

Would not the dual SV displays be sufficient redundancy?
 

Marc_J._Zeitlin

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Question: If the airplane has dual SV displays with ADAHRS and each has a backup battery then is there a significant reason to need a third "backup" attitude indicator?

Would not the dual SV displays be sufficient redundancy?
The OP stated that he had dual displays but a single ADAHRS. Failure analysis is complex, and what you're shooting for depends on the mission you have. The OP currently has no redundancy with respect to ADAHRS's. They could install an SV-ADAHRS-201 as a backup (and have a backup battery for each display) and then have full redundancy, without needing another screen in the panel.

However, this leaves major common mode failure paths, since the displays are identical in hardware and run identical software. Any common failure will bring down both displays and/or both ADAHRS's. This isn't likely, but it is possible, so if the OP is flying in IMC, having a NON-common mode failure capable backup ADAHRS (the D3 or AV-30 [or G5 or GI275, or any one of a number of other units]) will give them redundancy and common mode failure protection.

In that case, they may want the backup screen that has:
  • backup battery
  • independent screen
  • independent ADAHRS
In a fully self-contained package.

Now, if the OP is day VFR only, then it's all superfluous and no redundancy is needed at all - just look out the window and use your cellphone running some moving map software to find a place to land when the panel goes dark.
 

Rick Moss

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Jan 27, 2021
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C3F685CD-86FC-4655-81C7-55EF8FC59B45.jpeg
Have you considered a Garmin G5?
 

Dynon101

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Hi Marc,

Good to hear from you and THANKS for your response.

I guess I meant to use "a instead of "the" and I was thinking about my airplane that has dual SV displays each with ADAHRS and each has a backup battery so I was under the assumption that there would be sufficient redundancy for IFR operations? My airplane has two independent electrical systems each powering its respective SV-1000 and a radio so when I designed the system it seemed to be way more robust than the old Piper airplanes with one electrical system and vacuum attitude and electric turn coordinator.

>However, this leaves major common mode failure paths, since the displays are identical in hardware and run identical software. Any common failure will bring down both displays and/or both ADAHRS's. This isn't likely, but it is possible, so if the OP is flying in IMC, having a NON-common mode failure capable backup ADAHRS (the D3 or AV-30 [or G5 or GI275, or any one of a number of other units]) will give them redundancy and common mode failure protection.

What is your knowledge / experience with fiberglass airplanes and static electricity buildup/ discharge. A pilot in the Velocity community had a Garmin dual screen system and while climbing through a cloud layer both screens went blank but the airplane continued to fly normally on the autopilot and after climbing above the cloud the screens went back. He discussed it with Garmin and they downloaded the log and surmised that the cause was static electricity buildup/ discharge.

If this indeed the case then I am curious about how to mitigate this risk with the SV-1000 and if I did install a third screen/ ADAHRS would the third device screen also go blank due to the same issue? The spinning gyros are more costly than a self contained unit.
 

Marc_J._Zeitlin

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I was thinking about my airplane that has dual SV displays each with ADAHRS and each has a backup battery so I was under the assumption that there would be sufficient redundancy for IFR operations? My airplane has two independent electrical systems each powering its respective SV-1000 and a radio so when I designed the system it seemed to be way more robust than the old Piper airplanes with one electrical system and vacuum attitude and electric turn coordinator.
I have essentially the same thing (slightly modified Nuckolls Z-14, IIRC) in my COZY MKIV - two HDX's, two ADAHRS, no backup batteries since I have dual buses and dual alternators with a cross-tie. I agree that what you have is WAY better than a plane with a single electrical bus and vacuum instruments. I also put in a G5 as a non common mode susceptible standalone EFIS, in case SOMETHING manages to take out both ADAHRS's on the SV system. Extremely unlikely, but I already had the G5, so what the hell.

For the OP, either a 2nd ADAHRS or the standalone EFIS provide similar benefits, depending upon what the backup power schemes are. There are many ways to skin these cats.
What is your knowledge / experience with fiberglass airplanes and static electricity buildup/ discharge. A pilot in the Velocity community had a Garmin dual screen system and while climbing through a cloud layer both screens went blank but the airplane continued to fly normally on the autopilot and after climbing above the cloud the screens went back. He discussed it with Garmin and they downloaded the log and surmised that the cause was static electricity buildup/ discharge.
Fiberglass planes can have static buildup. They're not designed for lightning protection or isolation (at least the E-AB ones - Cirrus, et. al. do have some protection). I have a customer with a dual Garmin G3X system in his COZY MKIV and he has had substantial anomalous behavior while in IMC on a couple of occasions, which he attributed to static (also said that it felt like he was rubbing cats on his sweater at the same time that the screens were acting up).
If this indeed the case then I am curious about how to mitigate this risk with the SV-1000 and if I did install a third screen/ ADAHRS would the third device screen also go blank due to the same issue? The spinning gyros are more costly than a self contained unit.
While I have not heard of Dynon systems having issues with static buildup/discharge, I'd be surprised if they were substantially different than Garmin in that area. Maybe others on this forum can comment, particularly folks that fly a LOT of IMC. One of the advantages of an EFIS that isn't identical to the others (G5 with SV, AV-30 with SV, D10A with G3X, etc.) is the lack of many common mode failures due to different hardware and software design. And unless there's the same common mode failure with the backup EFIS, having a solid state device rather than a mechanical gyro is WAY more reliable.

My $0.02.
 

Dynon101

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Thanks Marc I always learn from you.

One thing that I learned today was to not rub a cat against my sweater whilst flying in IMC.

Thanks again...greatly appreciate it.
 
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