Horizontal faceplate for HS34

[dynonsupport]

This thread outlines how complex and in fact, impossible it is to make a product for everyone. We have lots of customers that are happy with the HS34. Some want it sideways. Some want it sideways with a reversible panel. Some don't want knobs at all. Some want a kit of parts they can mount anywhere.

There's no one answer. As a company all we can go with is the design that we believe will sell the most while being manufacturable, supportable, and affordable. We believe we have done that with the HS34 and other products. This ALWAYS means that we will not meet the needs of some customers. We are always sorry to lose those customers, but overall, we have been pretty good at making the right decisions as a company.

We hope that we can continue to discuss ideas for products with customers in the future without it becoming a constant roar of customers saying "you aren't listening to me." We are listening to each and every one of you, but that doesn't mean we will always be able to implement each and every idea.

 

[R_Redman]

I agree with Mel Jordan, reply #10 on this thread, and support Dynon's response in reply #20. I appreciate Dynon's prudent and generous approach to development of their products.

I would like a horizontal faceplate option for the H34, but I am prepared to wait for a soundly developed and fairly priced option, ie: consistent with Dynon's track record, which would be very hard to match for value.

Regards,

Bob Redman

 

[PilotKris]

I agree with Mel Jordan, reply #10 on this thread, and support Dynon's response in reply #20. I appreciate Dynon's prudent and generous approach to development of their products.

I would like a horizontal faceplate option for the H34, but I am prepared to wait for a soundly developed and fairly priced option, ie: consistent with Dynon's track record, which would be very hard to match for value.

Regards,

Bob Redman

How long are you prepared to wait Bob? Dynon (at least on this forum) hasn't acknowledged that there is a demand for such a product. That's my complaint.

Several people have expressed their desire to have more flexible mounting options for the HS34 only to have their suggestions shot down. I've also suggested other ideas for innovative products and/or modifications (and had others agree) only to be met with a list of reasons why Dynon doesn't think it's a good idea.

Mel isn't a very good example of an average consumer. He thinks that Dynon can do no wrong and thinks nothing of completely re-designing his airplane to accommodate the newest product (he's done it 3 times already).  I don't have that much free time. I'd love to be able to benefit from the improvements that the HS34 offers but even if I had the time to do it I can't redesign my SLSA panel without the manufacture's approval.

I don't just complain about it, I offer suggestions to help Dynon develop better products and/or improve existing products (they can't do that without input from end-users). That's why I was so disappointed by the tone of the responses I received.

If Dynon really wants to improve their products, they should value constructive criticism even more than the unqualified praise of Dynon Devotees (like you and Mel).

 

[PilotKris]

We hope that we can continue to discuss ideas for products with customers in the future without it becoming a constant roar of customers saying "you aren't listening to me." We are listening to each and every one of you, but that doesn't mean we will always be able to implement each and every idea.

What part of your response (quoted below) would lead me to believe that you are listinging to me?

We don't have any early adopters anymore, and we haven't since 2004 when we went from the D10 to the D10A. When we did that we allowed every single customer to upgrade their unit for a minimal cost. That's support.

The D10A hardware is the basis of every EFIS we sell today, and we've sold thousands of them over the last 3+ years without leaving a single one of those customers behind. Every customer that has purchased any one of our EFIS units has gotten every feature they were promised when they purchased it, and almost every customer out there has gotten tons more via free firmware updates. Beyond that, everything we're releasing today still works with the first D10A we sold in 2004, including the HS34. Just because it doesn't fit in some people's panels doesn't mean we aren't supporting them anymore.

We show an incredible amount of support for every single owner of our products, no matter what date they bought it on.  We're sorry if you feel otherwise. As the owner of a D180, you bought a very mature product that does exactly what we told you it would do.

 

[dynonsupport]

Just a side note, PilotKris - while we're definitely not an authority on how the SLSA regulations apply to your specific situation, (the manufacturers themselves, and the EAA are probably the best resources, and of course you alone remain responsible for ensuring that your aircraft remains legal and airworthy), but our basic understanding is that SLSAs can't be modified at all without the manufacturer approval. From what we've heard, some are fairly lenient with modifications like panel instrument changes, while others prefer to lock the configuration down a bit tighter. Anyway, just something to look into if you decide to try and add an HS34 at some point.

 

[meljordan]

PilotKris,

You are correct, I am a devoted Dynon user, and I do not think twice about modifying my airplane to meet my needs. I built my airplane, as do most Dynon customers, and so making a modification to improve it's capabilities is all part of the experience and certainly one of the key reasons I fly an experimental aircraft. As I fly my plane over 200 hours per year, clearly I also enjoy flying, not just building and modifying. I do not expect a manufacturer to solve all my challenges. If I see a product I want to use, I take the approach that it is up to me to figure out how to make it work in my airplane, not up to the manufacturer to modify the product to meet my specific needs. I don't think I am unusual, rather I think I probably represent their core customer base fairly well.

I have counted 8 people on this forum requesting that Dynon somehow modify the HS34 to fit their specific needs. This is hardly a ground swell of demand from a marketing perspective. I know that Dynon can not share information on how a product is doing because of proprietary competitive information, but I expect that if they have not jumped at the opportunity to modify the HS34 to meet your inputs or some of the inputs from the others, that this is because they have plenty of demand for the product as it now is configured and are busy with other product development. Given the limited development resources all companies have, they must clearly pick and choose from all the possible projects, and just because one is selected over the other does not mean the one not chosen is wrong or bad, only that it does not represent the optimum utilization of limited resources at that time.

I believe that Dynon has tried to explain that, but some persons have decided to take a fairly aggressive, even demanding tone and are saying that unless Dynon gives them exactly what they want, that Dynon is either"wrong" or "not listening". That is what I object to, as clearly Dynon has done a great job as evidenced by the fact that you and others want this product so badly. As yet I have not seen Dynon reject the horizontal option, only that they are not willing to commit to doing it at this time. You and others seem to make it sound like their lack of commitment to immediately drop everything else is poor customer service. I just don't see it that way, and I don't see that as constructive criticism.

As you can see by my tag, I am one of the group of Dynon Beta testers. I can assure you that they work very hard to incorporate customer inputs into every new free software update they release, and that some of the inputs they receive truly are "constructive criticisms". However, I have also seen them reject inputs when they didn't feel they were the best solution or were beyond the scope of their current plans. I have asked for functions which they have yet to implement in either hardware or software, but I hope that someday these features will show up in their products. Until then, I will have to make do with what I have, or with whatever solution I can come up with, but in my book, no other company has "improved their existing product" anywhere near the degree that Dynon has continuously done.

Just because they don't happen to agree with you does not mean they are not listening.

Regards,
Mel Jordan
Tucson, AZ

 

[DougR]

PilotKris

I am the guy that started this $hit$torm in the first place and I did it because Dynon has been VERY receptive to "prodding"  

I was an early D10 Adopter and there were some growing pains.  I sent my unit back a couple times and it was always Returned Next Day Air, No Charge.  

I prodded about an HSI and, Viola, we got an HSI, I prodded about an Alt Alerter and soon we will have an Alt Alerter.

I prodded about a Garmin 430 GS interface to the HSI soon we will have that too.

Your assesment has no basis in the reality of the Dynon Business Model.  They have VERY strong Customer Service and have been very responsive to Customer "prodding."

In each case I described above, the first we knew of their response to Customer prodding was a press release on Propwash announcing that they had a new product.    

Nothing personal, but I don't know how long you have been following the development of their products.  Based on my long term first hand experience I can't understand how you can conclude that they have not been responsive to Customer input.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Very Early Adopter

 

[TRCsmith]

PilotKris

I just wanted to let you know if you spent time reading about SLSA aircraft you would know that in fact you can change the certification to expermental per FAR's (it's easy). With that said you can stop complaining about Dynon and install what you want. I know I have less space than you and I have lots of neat stuff in mine. No engineering required.


TRCsmith
Long EZ
Builder
500+ hours

 

[flyer2377]

When will the HS34 be shipping...how should we place an order..

Thanks

 

[TRCsmith]

Call Dynon, and ask to be put on the list. That's all there is to it.
I can hardly wait.

Thanks Dynon, I just installed a Garmin SL-30 and plugged it into the D100 and WoW.. Now if Anywhere map comes through with a suggestion to output more data to feed the D100 then we're talking hog heven.

Thanks again

 

[dynonsupport]

The HS34 (at least the vertical version!) is expected to ship in August.

For now, you'll need to call us direct to order one. We're discussing radios and such with people that are pre-ordering right now in order to make sure it will work for them as expected.

 

[PilotKris]

Just a side note, PilotKris - while we're definitely not experts on SLSAs

You really should get better acquainted.

The SLSA market is EXPLODING and should, if it hasn't already, eclipse the experimental market in terms of units delivered per year. Already, there are now more SLSAs on my field than Expermentals and every single SLSA has been built/equipped since you've been in business.

While the experimental builders tend to be an opinionated, non-conformist, and vocal group (by their very nature), the SLSA buyers are guys who would rather pay their money and fly than build. I doubt that you'll find many SLSA owners on this forum but don't under-estimate their numbers (and purchasing power).

I'd even venture to say that OEM SLSA is your biggest single market opportunity.

 

[PilotKris]

PilotKris

I just wanted to let you know if you spent time reading about SLSA aircraft you would know that in fact you can change the certification to expermental per FAR's (it's easy). With that said you can stop complaining about Dynon and install what you want. I know I have less space than you and I have lots of neat stuff in mine. No engineering required.


TRCsmith
Long EZ
Builder
500+ hours

Ouch! your jab hurts so much.

TRC, you're obviously so much smarter than I. Please, please show me the right way 'cause I'm just an inexperienced fool...

Thank you for making my point about Experimental Builders being "opinionated, non-conformist, and vocal" (even in the absence of the knowledge necessary to have an informed opinion).

I have no desire what-so-ever to go "experiential" with this aircraft. The some of the downside to that "easy" fix include:

Inability to get the insurance limits I need
Inability to use the aircraft for flight instruction
Voiding my life insurance
Increasing my liability exposure

As for engineering. OF COURSE engineering was needed on your panel, you're just the one who did it.  

As I stated earlier, even if I could (SLSA rules don't allow it) I don't have the time to do it. Don't get met wrong, I certainly have the ability to do it. I've designed, built, installed instrument panels and even got FAA field approval for the modifications.

Yes, I actually have read about it and happen to know a thing or two...

BTW, can you get a D180, SL30, GTX330, 496, mechanical AS and Altimeter AND a vertically oriented HS34 in that EZ's panel?.... I didn't think so...

 

[PilotKris]

One last message to Mel and the other Dynon Devotees.

When someone has a suggestion for a product or improvement, refrain from the personal attacks.

Your unqualified support and defense of Dynon discourages others from expressing opinions that result in an improvement that you might actually want.

Not only does it discourage the free flow of ideas, how can Dynon hope to gage the demand for these improvements without people feeling free to express their opinions and ideas without fear of feeling "ganged up on".

If you really want the best product possible, encourage people to share their ideas and stop with the personal attacks and regurgitation of how you think their products are perfect the way they are.

To Dynon,

I'm sure it feels good to read all the wonderful things the Dynon Devotees say about you and your products. However, you could do a better job at making people like myself (who are actually trying to help you) feel welcome and appreciated and discouraging the Dynon Devotees from ganging up on people like me.

 

[dynonsupport]

Per PilotKris's point, I've modified a previous post above to be a bit more precise in meaning.

You are right though - SLSAs do indeed represent a sizable and growing part of our business, and we hope to continue to be the glass panel provider of choice in that space by working closely with manufacturers to develop products which meet their and their customer's needs.

 

[TRCsmith]

Pilot Kris

First you say you can't go expermentail, when I say you can, you say you don't want to due to whatever...Just trying to help you out. By the way I have room for and will install the HS34.

Also I use Anywhere map "great product", I have an SL-30, and will be upgreading my transponder to a GTX-327 next month.. A D180???? Don't need it, I have those old round things.

You have the money-you buy what you want.
I had the time I built what I wanted!
Both happy-life is to short, lets go have fly...

 

[TRCsmith]

I ment "lets go fly" not have fly. Have fly sounds so stupid.......Hey, we may agree on something.

 

[PilotKris]

Pilot Kris

First you say you can't go expermentail, when I say you can, you say you don't want to due to whatever...Just trying to help you out. By the way I have room for and will install the HS34.

Also I use Anywhere map "great product", I have an SL-30, and will be upgreading my transponder to a GTX-327 next month.. A D180???? Don't need it, I have those old round things.

You have the money-you buy what you want.
I had the time I built what I wanted!
Both happy-life is to short, lets go have fly...

I never said I couldn't "go expermential". I know I could, but I won't for the reasons listed.

Be VERY careful if you fly IFR with Anywhere Map. There was a guy (in a Cherokee if memory serves) who flew into a hill shooting a GPS approach. The only GPS on board was Bluetooth and his PDA running Anywhere Map.

He was only "two dots" off on his "HSI". The problem is that is 2 MILES if the CDI is set for "enroute" and not "approach" (.3 miles full scale). Approach CERTIFIED GPS units automaticaly scale up to "approach" to shoot an approach.

 

[dynonsupport]

As an FYI, we will officially have a horizontal version of the HS34 for sale on the same day that the vertical HS34 goes for sale.

The printing will be oriented such that the HS34 is rotated 90 degrees clockwise, placing what used to be the top of the HS34 on the right hand side. Everything else about the unit, including all the wiring and dimensions, is identical.

 

[aceflyingservice]

But I wanted it rotated 90 degress counterclockwise. (just kidding) Finally, can we put this thread to bed?