I am SO sick of the SA app

airguy

Active Member
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Nov 10, 2008
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977
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Gods Country - west Texas
Steve, you can split hairs on the timing all you like - but your customers are asking you for something that your competitors offer, and you are arguing about it. That's not a recipe for a successful business.

We know that our business is a small part of yours (because you constantly like to bring it up) and that we don't have enough financial impact to you to get you to do it the way your competitors do it, but one day you'll wake up to declining numbers in this growing market and you'll wonder why. We won't wonder, we'll be using the product that does what we want, not the product that does what you think we should do.

Maybe it's time to listen to your market instead of arguing with it, while you still can.
 

swatson999

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2010
Messages
1,528
how far in advance is required?

When is the data released by the FAA? I'd say within 24 hours of that.

If I'm not mistaken, FAA data is released something like 20 days prior (for VFR charts, at least)?
 

n144sh

I love flying!
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
75
Steve, you can split hairs on the timing all you like - but your customers are asking you for something that your competitors offer, and you are arguing about it. That's not a recipe for a successful business.

We know that our business is a small part of yours (because you constantly like to bring it up) and that we don't have enough financial impact to you to get you to do it the way your competitors do it, but one day you'll wake up to declining numbers in this growing market and you'll wonder why. We won't wonder, we'll be using the product that does what we want, not the product that does what you think we should do.

Maybe it's time to listen to your market instead of arguing with it, while you still can.


Concur 100%.   In fact you are already losing business.  I use Foreflight - but have no particular allegiance to it.  I have also tried Garmin & WingX.   I wouldn't even consider FlyQ - simply because of the issues I have personally experienced with the SA Datamanager for both Bendix / King products and now Skyview.    Additionally - the lack of support or even interest in supporting the Mac platform and the "we know best" attitude is a serious turn off for me. 
 

stevepo

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Aug 27, 2015
Messages
51
Folks,

Sometimes I feel like I'm in the middle a Republican presidential debate in terms of things being taken way out of context and people shouting at each other (well, at me anyway).

1.  SA is in the business of providing apps and ChartData.  Each is about 1/2 of our business.  Dynon is one of many of the apps or devices that use our data but one of the most important for a lot of reasons including A) A large # of users B) We're in the same building as Dynon and know them well.  If anyone thinks we don't pay attention to Dynon users, you're very much mistaken.  Suffice it say that I don't read and respond to Aspen or Bendix-King forums (if they even have them).  In general, keeping ALL of our ChartData customers happy is a key part of what we do.  There is nothing technically different from the way Dynon users use our ChartData than most other OEM users except that Dynon (and FlyQ EFB) use MORE of the data products that we make than anyone else.  More data, more time to verify before release and more time to download and copy to the data card (not applicable to iPad apps like FlyQ or ForeFlight).  And it probably won't surprise you to learn that, as a group, Dynon users are FAR more vocal than other ChartData users.  The squeaky wheel does get oiled.  The new version of the DM we're working on now is designed to specifically address concerns mostly raised by Dynon users.

2.  There seems to be an impression that we suck in the FAA data and just spit it out mechanically.  If that was all it was, everyone would publish data 24 hours after the FAA did.  No one does because it's impossible. 

A.  Seattle Avionics does all the geo-referencing for the approach plates.  The FAA does not provide this at all. This takes both automated processing and substantial amount of human work and human triple checking.  We're massively paranoid about this and are the only company besides Jepp and Garmin to follow FAA DO-200A protocol for accuracy.  This takes time to create and validate every cycle.  In something like 10 years of doing this, we've had precisely one case where we were found to have incorrectly geo-referenced a plate.  I'm told that Jepp doesn't do so well and I know that ForeFlight doesn't because they've had to issue user alerts about their errors.  Again, accuracy is Job #1 and we're extremely proud of our track record there.  But it takes time.

B.  The new SA Airport Diagrams are entirely human-driven in terms of creation and checking.  There is no button to push that magically spits them out.  Think of guys behind CAD and GIS systems cross-referencing info with the FAA, user-submitted changes, and several other sources.  This is a substantial cost for us to produce and takes time.

C.  Even Sectionals and IFR Low/High charts are not entirely provided by the FAA.  The FAA provides the original maps but, esp. for the Sectionals, they were never designed to be seamlessly glued together so substantial R&D went into masking and assembling them.  The FAA also changes the maps (obviously) so each and every tile (660,000 Sectional tiles alone each cycle) has to be processed, mechanically verified, then human-verified.  Again, takes time.

3.  Mac.  Not sure how many times I can write this but ... I use a Macbook Air as my main machine.  I'm typing on one now.  As a company that does iOS development, all our devs use Macs.  Our sales and support people use Macs.  Almost all of our work is done on Macs.  We don't make a Data Manager on the Mac for a very, very simple reason -- the DM is a very complex piece of software not a simple download/copy app.  Sure we could port it to the Mac but maintaining a Windows and Mac version would be challenging and, as we don't have unlimited resources, I'd rather use those resources to concentrate on the version that affects most users - a Windows version.  As I said yesterday, we have a new version of the DM that will be in beta very soon and I'd love to have all of you test it and give us feedback (it won't be out today, I'm afraid).  Any comments about us playing big-brother and saying that we know best are entirely off-base.  But it is not possible to do everything at once given finite resources so we do focus on things that help the largest numbers of users first.  That doesn't preclude doing a Mac version of the DM in the future but we're working on something slightly different that will probably make many of you very happy.

Finally, can we get ChartData out sooner than we do now, sure.  And we're working on it.  if we got them out on Saturday, would everyone be happy?

Thanks, Steve
 

rogersmart

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
107
Guys,
First, I want to say that I have been using the SA charts for Skyview from the start and have yet to have my first issue. I always leave the program in the system tray of my desktop and a second USB in the drive. That way I have the updated data anytime I want to fly. I also have DM on my laptop and the computer files are always up to date to use when I am away.

Second, How many company presidents engage with customers like Steve does. It's easy to abuse him and his company with keystrokes but try that with the head of some of the other companies you mention, I doubt you even get a response. I appreciate his candor and he makes some very good points about the differences in data providers. As a business owner, I appreciate the challenges working within your resources.

The Ipad companies probably don't provide data for certified systems like SA does so the Ipad companies can take some short cuts resulting in shorter lead time. Even though the Dynon is not a certified IFR device, I get comfort having charts that were produced using that FAA protocol since I fly in the soup sometimes. Every chart, every update for $99.00/year, what a deal. I wish my 430 was that inexpensive to keep current.
 

Garrett

I love flying!
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
208
Location
Tampa Fl
Thanks for the feedback Steve. I am glad you guys are here. There has been a learning curve for everyone involved and I am not surprised one bit. I have been involved in electronics for over 30 years and have rarely seen any project go off without a hitch. Also compared with what Garmin charges for their database's I think your prices are a good deal. :)
 

rgrowe

I love flying!
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Messages
2
Dynon:
I have been waiting a long time for the ability to get my FLYQ_EFB / FLYQ_Online flight plans into my Dynon Skyview. When will this feature be available? Seems like you already read flight plans from ForeFlight. Why not from FlyQ_EFB?
 

dynonsupport

Dynon Technical Support
Staff member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
13,226
FlyQ EFB / FlyQ Online

Transfer of flight plans to SkyView via Wi-Fi from ForeFlight is available now because they were the first company to work with us to implement the necessary technology for that to be possible. The exclusivity period with ForeFlight has now expired and other company are welcome to (and many have) approached Dynon Avionics to implement flight plan transfer capability.

Have you asked the company that publishes your favorite flight plan app?

I think if you read back through this thread, you might find your answer. ;)

Dynon:
I have been waiting a long time for the ability to get my FLYQ_EFB / FLYQ_Online flight plans into my Dynon Skyview.  When will this feature be available?  Seems like you already read flight plans from ForeFlight.  Why not from FlyQ_EFB?
 

jc2da

New Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
279
Great, thanks for the update Steve. I am looking forward to the flightplan transfers with Skyview. A happy non-squeaky user here! Already a beta tester as well! ;)
 

rogersmart

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
107
I wrote this on another thread but will repeat it here since Steve is working on integration with Skyview. My wish list item is for FlyQ to work with Dynon to send the ADS-B data (GDL 90) to IPADS via WIFI. Why? Eliminate the cost and cockpit clutter of a second standalone ADS-B receiver. Seems like this would be a great selling point for both products. What say you Steve.

Roger Smart
 

swatson999

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2010
Messages
1,528
Charts expire Thursday evening.

Dynon: charts available for download.
Garmin: charts available for download.

SA: No charts available for download.
 
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