SV-AP-PANEL Trim With 7-amp Brushed DC Motor

EDP

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I'm building a Kitfox, which has electric pitch trim using a linear actuator driven by a brushed DC motor. That motor can draw ~7A under load. The SkyView installation manual, on page 18-5, says, "If using other [than Ray Allen] trim motors, ensure that the trim motor's maximum current does not exceed 2A."

With this in mind, I have a few questions:

1. Is there an established way to buffer the trim motor outputs from the SV-AP-PANEL so that it can drive >2A?

If not, then I'll need to design my own buffer. So...

2. Does the SV-AP-PANEL accomplish trim speed control using an analog voltage or PWM?

3. If PWM, at what frequency, and what are the upper and lower duty cycle limits?

4. Table 98 on page 18-6 describes the states of output pins 7 and 8 during trim commands, but what about when no trim is commanded; are pins 7 and 8 high impedance, or both pulled to ground?

Thanks.
 

Dynon

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1. We don't have an officially documented way to do this.
2. PWM
3. Don't have an immediate answer to this one.
4.Both to ground.
 

EDP

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Beautiful, thanks very much for the info! That should be plenty to get me started. Please do let me know if you can get the frequency and duty cycle info later, and I'll post my solution here, so others can benefit.
 

Snork

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How fast is the PWM switching?
I have a similar pitch trim actuator that I’m installing in my Bearhawk4, and the actuator is used to trim the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. One challenge is that the directional inputs for the actuator are pulled to ground, so I have to convert Dynon’s trim output on pins 7 and 8 to negative(ground) voltage by passing them through a SSR ( solid state relay). I’m hoping that the frequency of Dynon’s PWM switching will pass through the relay. Thanks!
 

Rhino

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I would test very thoroughly, and consider backup options if using solid state relays. Since SSRs operate on low voltages, they prefer filtered inputs that block pulses (like PWM) and induced noise. And many SSRs include built in filter circuitry designed to do exactly that. You might want to consider using a mechanical relay instead, assuming the threshold voltage is met with an adequate safety margin (applies no matter what relay you use). Either way, test it very thoroughly, and maybe have a method to disconnect the autopilot inputs and trim manually using a backup method if a problem is encountered. A simple three position momentary switch should work for that. I'm not saying don't do this. Generally I prefer SSRs over mechanical relays for obvious reliability reasons. It may very well work flawlessly, and I hope it does. There's just nuances to this that could bite you in the butt if everything doesn't go right, and in the air isn't where you want to discover any such issues. So test the crap out of it just to stay on the safe side. I'd personally go mechanical because the reliability risk would seem minimal, and it would be simpler. But that's just me, and obviously you should do what you want on your own aircraft. Good luck either way, and please let us know what you find.

EDIT: I'm assuming just using the Ray Allen motor instead isn't an option for you for some reason. Otherwise I'd suggest using those so none of this stuff would be necessary. Unlike you, EDP apparently already had the other motors installed, and didn't want to change them.
 
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Marc_J._Zeitlin

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EDP

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Dynon,

Old thread, but I wanted to follow up on one item from my original question, and your answer:

3. If PWM, at what frequency, and what are the upper and lower duty cycle limits?
3. Don't have an immediate answer to this one.

I have since gone all-in on Dynon gear and have a complete HDX suite ready to go into my Kitfox. I'm putting together a few ancillary parts to integrate that system, one of which is a high current trim motor driver to respect the SV-AP-PANEL's 2-amp limit.

I realize that your exact PWM specifications may be proprietary engineering data, but can you confirm one thing: that the PWM frequency is ≤25kHz? That's really all I need to know, as that's the upper limit for the half-bridge ICs that I want to use for motor drive. Thank you!




This will take the input from the Dynon (or Garmin) trim output and boost up to 10A. No need to design your own, unless you want to.

Thanks, Marc; TCW make some really nice products. However, I enjoy designing things like this and mine will cost a tiny fraction of the TCW box. The TCW's safety features (run time limit, stuck switch protection) are already part of the SV-AP-PANEL, so there's no need to duplicate them in a Dynon installation. All I need to add is a high current motor drive.
 

Bomar

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You can build your own, but I really like the additional safety features that Dynon added to their SV-AP-TRIMAMP

 

EDP

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You can build your own, but I really like the additional safety features that Dynon added to their SV-AP-TRIMAMP
Thanks for the suggestion, Bomar, but the SV-AP-PANEL that I already own includes most of those features: speed-sensitive trim control, autopilot auto-trim, stuck switch and short circuit protections, and pilot switch priority. As I mentioned above, all I need to add is a high current motor drive.
 

Bill Putney

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The trim outputs of the autopilot panel are just two wires for each axis and the states are either OFF, +/- or -/+ depending on which way you're driving the servo. The motor is driven in one direction or the other depending on the polarity of the pulses. If you want to preserve the PWM trim speed control, relays aren't going to cut it. You need something that preserves both the polarity of the signal and the pulse width.

There are lots of inexpensive motor controllers out there that will drive high currents (up to about 15A at up to 35V) and most have 2 or more channels, so you could do both trim pitch and roll with one board. All these controllers I've found are designed to interface to micro-controllers. They want a PWM speed control 0 to +3-5V swing at 0.4 to 20 KHz and a motor direction control of 0 or +3-5V. You can get those for under $20 from Amazon and have it in your hands tomorrow (if you have Prime).

Hypothetically, one could see how a person might use one of these controllers in a trim system compatible with the Dynon SV-AP-PANEL trim MOTOR outputs and preserve both speed and direction. You'd need one set of these for each trim axis though you only need one controller board. Connect the "AC" pins of a bridge rectifier to the motor output of the the SV-AP-PANEL. Connect the "DC" pins of the bridge rectifier to the PWM input of the motor controller through an optocoupler to isolate the grounds. Connect a 2nd optocoupler from the motor output of the SV-AP-PANEL should only conduct in one direction. Add a filter circuit to integrate the PWM pulses to give a continuous 0 in one direction (negative pulses that the optocoupler doesn't conduct for) and a continuous 1 in the other. Connect the output of the controller to the trim motor and it does both speed and direction control from the Dynon SV-AP-PANEL. An oscilloscope or frequency counter will give you the PWM rate. That will give you a head start on design of the filter/integrator.

You want to have a push-pull circuit breaker for this in case something goes wrong.

This works for the experimental set only. There is no installation basis for something like this in a Certificated aircraft!


Screen Shot 2022-08-29 at 10.43.38 AM.png
 

EDP

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The trim outputs of the autopilot panel are just two wires for each axis and the states are either OFF, +/- or -/+ depending on which way you're driving the servo.
Just to clarify, if the SV-AP-PANEL isn't driving the motor, both outputs for that axis are pulled to ground. That's the "OFF" state.

There are lots of inexpensive motor controllers out there [...] You can get those for under $20 from Amazon [...]
Indeed, many of the electronic hobbyist modules available online are impressive, at least in theory. The problem is that a very high percentage of the modules from China that are sold on Amazon, eBay, AliExpress, etc. -- especially those that advertise using a specific part number from a well-known manufacturer -- are made with counterfeit ICs that often don't meet the real manufacturer's specifications.

As an example, take the ubiquitous motor drive modules claiming to use two Infineon BTS7960 half-bridge ICs. Here's an eBay seller in Texas advertising them for $8.50 delivered. There's no way that guy can import, package and ship a module using two genuine Infineon ICs that cost ~$3.60 ea. in 1,000 quantity for $8.50.

As you pointed out, even Amazon is in on the counterfeit game. Their marketplace listings are overflowing with the same module, starting for as little as $6.33 ea. in packs of three (helpfully mislabeled as stepper motor drivers), stocked and shipped by Amazon for free Prime delivery. They're apparently blissfully unaware of the Chinese IP theft that they're facilitating on their platform.

Also, the BTS7960 has been obsolete for well over a year and legitimate component suppliers have zero stock. How is China producing thousands of those modules using two ICs per board?

Anyway, my point is that I prefer to source components from legitimate suppliers so that I know what I'm getting, especially when it's going into my airplane.

Hypothetically, one could see how a person might use one of these controllers in a trim system compatible with the Dynon SV-AP-PANEL trim MOTOR outputs and preserve both speed and direction. You'd need one set of these for each trim axis though you only need one controller board. Connect the "AC" pins of a bridge rectifier to the motor output of the the SV-AP-PANEL. Connect the "DC" pins of the bridge rectifier to the PWM input of the motor controller through an optocoupler to isolate the grounds. Connect a 2nd optocoupler from the motor output of the SV-AP-PANEL should only conduct in one direction. Add a filter circuit to integrate the PWM pulses to give a continuous 0 in one direction (negative pulses that the optocoupler doesn't conduct for) and a continuous 1 in the other. Connect the output of the controller to the trim motor and it does both speed and direction control from the Dynon SV-AP-PANEL.
I'm afraid that I don't follow your circuit description; I don't understand the need for a bridge rectifier, dual optocouplers, isolated grounds or an integrating filter.

Feeding the motor outputs from the SV-AP-PANEL through a bridge rectifier would eliminate direction information. Regardless of which "AC" input to the bridge was high, only its "DC+" output would ever go high. Feeding that into a motor driver would result in unidirectional movement regardless of trim commands.

Putting a PWM signal through an integrating filter will produce a variable analog DC voltage, not a discreet 0 or 1. The PWM signal is what controls motor speed; once you filter it away, you've lost speed control (or to be pedantic, you've lost speed control at full motor torque).

An optocoupler doesn't provide an isolated ground; it isolates a signal. In a single-supply DC system you would need an isolated DC-DC converter to achieve isolated grounds.

The only interface that might be required between the SV-AP-PANEL outputs and a motor driver is level translation to satisfy the driver's input voltage limit. Each of the two motor outputs from the SV-AP-PANEL will connect to the input of one-half of a full-bridge driver, and each half-bridge responds to a high signal on its discreet input. Without a common ground reference this won't work.

An oscilloscope or frequency counter will give you the PWM rate.
Indeed they will, but unfortunately it's not quite that easy. The SV-AP-PANEL will only produce a PWM speed control output when it's powered by and communicating on the SkyView Network. If that connection is lost -- and if its alternate power pin (D15 pin 9) is supplied from elsewhere -- the SV-AP-PANEL reverts to a simple full-speed directional control. Thus, I would have to mock up the entire system in order to make the SV-AP-PANEL produce a PWM output that I could measure.

This is why I'm asking if Dynon can simply confirm that the PWM frequency is below 25kHz: because I can't easily measure it until my plane is nearly complete.
 

steve_izett

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Here is how I boosted the Dynon Trim controller using a Pololu Motor Driver board for $10.
Works well driving a Trim Motor of my Glasair Super II RG
Hope its helpful.

Steve
 

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chriscalandro

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Here is how I boosted the Dynon Trim controller using a Pololu Motor Driver board for $10.
Works well driving a Trim Motor of my Glasair Super II RG
Hope its helpful.

Steve
How did you calculate that resistor value for the A&B in? What data did you find? I have 160 ohm resistors but not 158... It's probably fine but I can't find the data for the autopilot module.
 

Rhino

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The servo documentation has specs. I assume he got it from there or from a direct measurement. All he's doing is lowering the 12 volt output to a control voltage <5 volts, so the difference between 160 and 158 is so small that it should be negligible.
 

chriscalandro

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I get it, it’s not about the servo, it’s about the current requirements and specs of the motor driver and AP panel.

I’m sure I can find the specs for the motor driver, I can’t see the specs for the AP panel.

What is limiting the current on the output and what are the specs of it.
 

Rhino

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The AP panel goes to the servo when there's no trimamp, so the specs should be essentially identical. That's why I imagine he used that as a reference. Trim is 12 volts only, and you know the output is nominally 2 amps or less, because that's all the AP panel is spec'd for without a trimamp. The TB67H420FTG chip on the Pololu driver carrier is spec'd to take 5.5 volts or less on the INx inputs, hence Steve's voltage divider. So the difference between 160 and 158 ohms in the voltage divider is so small that it should be negligible.
 

chriscalandro

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Unfortunately that’s not how electrical engineering works.

I think I’ll wait for Steve to respond so I can verify his data and math before things get blown up.

The servo is in no way a factor in this calculation.

Depending on the circuit on the AP panel side, 2 ohms could have a major effect, and is in no way negligible.

2 ohms is a potentially a HUGE difference.
 

Rhino

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Okay, at 12 volts, 160 ohms will give you 3.3513513514 volts off the voltage divider. 158 ohms will give you 3.38181818 volts. A negligible difference. Electronic engineering does work like that.
 
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