Trouble with Seattle Avionics DataManager.... again....

swatson999

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I've had these same problems with numerous computers, standalone and laptop, numerous types and sizes of USB drives, hard-wired, WiFi and broadband connections. I've had it happen at work, at home, and at the hangar office. I've reformatted drives and had them continue to fail to work with SA. I've had drives that *did* work, *stop* working. I know what paging is...I have an MS in CS.

This is more than just my computer or USB stick not working. *THE PROGRAM SUCKS*.

https://www.seattleavionics.com/DataManager.aspx and click on Support (https://www.seattleavionics.com/support.aspx).
 

airguy

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When you click the "HELP" button on the newest software, it goes into detail about how to set up a USB for use and tips/tricks on getting the best service from the manager. Included in that text is this gem, emphasis mine below.

Dynon SkyView
Data Manager normally runs in the background while your computer is running and downloads new data shortly after the data become available on the Seattle Avionics server (typically the day before the current data cycle ends). US data is updated every 28 days.

For years this was "The Thursday before the current data cycle ends", and now it has been quietly changed to "the day before".

Fabulous.
 

PilotMelch

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I've had these same problems with numerous computers, standalone and laptop, numerous types and sizes of USB drives, hard-wired, WiFi and broadband connections. I've had it happen at work, at home, and at the hangar office. I've reformatted drives and had them continue to fail to work with SA. I've had drives that *did* work, *stop* working. I know what paging is...I have an MS in CS.

This is more than just my computer or USB stick not working. *THE PROGRAM SUCKS*.

https://www.seattleavionics.com/DataManager.aspx and click on Support (https://www.seattleavionics.com/support.aspx).
SO, do you know what "sucks" about it, or are you just blaming it because you are unable to figure out what the actual problem is?

My response wasn't just to you. It was to everyone who is having problems they are attributing to the Database Manager. I'm trying to help solve the problem for others.

This is a classic support issue, and blaming the one app you're focussed on, when you don't know the reason for the problems, is smartly put, unwarranted. Glad you have an MS in CS. I've been in computers, deep, since 1979. I've worked on everything from mainframes to Arduinos. I've created lots of very complex systems from banking, accounting, to AI and behavior modeling systems, to complex energy modeling systems, flight simulation, and embedded systems. So I know a thing or too as well and I've paid my dues when it came to digging into the root causes of issues and supporting users. I've been as deep as it gets, down to tracing processor machine code, and memory.

That said, this seems to me like a classic support issue, where those having issues are focussing on the one app, rather than the complex system. Then that one app gets blamed for the problems, even though, likely, if you were to dig in with all the system analyzers, tracing apps, performance apps, etc., you find the "cause" is some other component. Microsoft did this for years when all the thousands (hundreds of thousands) of software developers created buggy, crappy, software and drivers that crashed the users PC. User's blamed Microsoft, or Windows, even though the vast, vast majority of issues were not the fault of Windows or software Microsoft created. Microsoft eventually put in all sorts of safeguards for processes and memory, required apps and drivers to be signed, running processes in protected mode, etc. so they could find and blame the real culprits.

This is a complex problem that Seatle Avionics is trying to make simple with their fully automated Database Manager. It is relying on a lot of things to work properly that are beyond its control, and in many cases are very fragile. And yet, it works very well for so many. And those many aren't making the squeaky wheel noises as are the relatively few who are having issues.

So if you don't know why you're having problems, and so many other folks aren't having problems using the exact same app, then how in the blazes can you blame the Database Manager? What precisely are you blaming it for doing or not doing?
 

PilotMelch

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I've had these same problems with numerous computers, standalone and laptop, numerous types and sizes of USB drives, hard-wired, WiFi and broadband connections. I've had it happen at work, at home, and at the hangar office. I've reformatted drives and had them continue to fail to work with SA. I've had drives that *did* work, *stop* working. I know what paging is...I have an MS in CS.

This is more than just my computer or USB stick not working. *THE PROGRAM SUCKS*.

https://www.seattleavionics.com/DataManager.aspx and click on Support (https://www.seattleavionics.com/support.aspx).
Also, by the way, that link appears to be OLD, perhaps from a bookmark you have? The current live site does not have any aspx links, and the current Database Manager link is https://www.seattleavionics.com/products/Chartdata/.
 

swatson999

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Well, like you, I've spent plenty of time in the trenches, as well as running Anomaly Response Teams, designing software, architecting systems, and leading small, medium and large teams across the globe. See that avatar? Yeah...

So yes, I have checked that I have the latest version of the OS and DataManager. I have checked drivers. I have uninstalled and reinstalled the software several times on several computers. I've cleaned out the stored data and deleted the folders and such on the hard drive, formatted the USB sticks (plural), you name it. At some point, when other programs are all working fine on multiple machines, and *this one* seems to get itself hung up about 1 time out of every 3 or 4, you have to start suspecting that the obvious cause is the real cause.
 

PilotMelch

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Well, like you, I've spent plenty of time in the trenches, as well as running Anomaly Response Teams, designing software, architecting systems, and leading small, medium and large teams across the globe. See that avatar? Yeah...

So yes, I have checked that I have the latest version of the OS and DataManager. I have checked drivers. I have uninstalled and reinstalled the software several times on several computers. I've cleaned out the stored data and deleted the folders and such on the hard drive, formatted the USB sticks (plural), you name it. At some point, when other programs are all working fine on multiple machines, and *this one* seems to get itself hung up about 1 time out of every 3 or 4, you have to start suspecting that the obvious cause is the real cause.
Ok, so why does it NOT do that for me and several others. What's the difference?
 

swatson999

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Als

Also, by the way, that link appears to be OLD, perhaps from a bookmark you have? The current live site does not have any aspx links, and the current Database Manager link is https://www.seattleavionics.com/products/Chartdata/
You're right...it's old. But it's not from a bookmark, it's what the Google came up with as a subpage when I searched "Seattle Avionics". Interestingly, other search engines (Bing, e.g.) don't show it. So I guess it's old, but good webpage managers would have simply pointed the old one to the new one instead of orphaning it.

I've seen this sort of "hobby-turned-business" model before. GoPro comes to mind. It started as kind of a cool, fun thing that some folks did to make small cameras, and they started selling them. And got *overwhelmed* with demand, and quality sucked with a high percentage of failures and returns, poor customer service, dissatisfied customers and such. Ultimately, by about the 4th generation, they figured out their problems and they seem to be pretty good now. Now, if you were one of the majority who got cameras that worked, great! You would think the company is the bee's knees...but a sizeable number of customers got dodgy equipment that took multiple returns to fix. Not a good business plan. The on-line forums and reviews were *brutal* for a while, because they basically bit off more than they could chew, and it took a while to become a "real" business with real engineering and real customer service and the like.

SA reminds me of this sort of thing.
 

swatson999

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Ok, so why does it NOT do that for me and several others. What's the difference?

I'll hazard a guess...because the software is *poorly architected*, poorly designed, and poorly verified and validated. I'm guessing that early versions probably had a poor set of requirements to boot.
 

PilotMelch

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I'll hazard a guess...because the software is *poorly architected*, poorly designed, and poorly verified and validated. I'm guessing that early versions probably had a poor set of requirements to boot.
Really. What evidence do you have for those accusations? I'm curious.
 

swatson999

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You are obviously a Seattle Avionice fanboy intent on spreading the glory - care to tell us what position you hold within their company?
I was just thinking the same thing. New poster, too.
 

PilotMelch

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You are obviously a Seattle Avionice fanboy intent on spreading the glory - care to tell us what position you hold within their company?
Why would you make this assumption? Because I didn't just get on your bandwagon...

Here's who I am.

I have nothing to do with Seattle Avionics other than being a customer, like you. I love my Dynon's, now HDX's, but previously Skyviews. I maintain several aircraft with Dynon equipment as well as Garmin equipment. I prefer the Dynon HDX's over Garmin G3X, and I can explain why, for whatever that is worth. But I've written, as well as used, software that looks for updated data transfers large amounts of data over sometimes sketchy transmittal systems, does synchronization with various schemes (not ever easy), and has to deal with recovering from all the things that can possibly go wrong, so that to the user it appears to "just plain work".

I only mention my experience with Garmin because I do have issues with their Garmin Express and database updating system. I've just come up with workarounds that keep me going quickly without having to spend the time troubleshooting that system.

I also have an extensive background in creating software and electronics over several decades. I don't have an MS in CS because they didn't have those degrees when I got started. Instead, I was one of the folks that helped develop the science and concepts that were taught to those students, including quality assurance techniques and processes. I've spent a good amount of my life supporting software as it was banged by users that far more often than not turned out to be wrong about it (when we dug in and found the actual causes of their issues). The reputation of the software was oftentimes tarnished nonetheless because the accusation gets more air time than the exoneration. So I'm sensitive to the developers and the criticisms they endure based on unwarranted assumptions rather than real evidence.

But finally, I am not one to complain just to complain. I have read many times criticisms of the Database Manager, without anyone actually providing any real evidence that it is bad, in any way actually. They just say they have problems/issues and declare the Database Manager crappy software. These complaints are almost always followed by many more users declaring they have had no problems with it. What I see is a select group of folks having issues, that are at best "symptoms" without any real determination of cause, blaming the so called bad software, and getting way too much air time over their assumptions.

I am quite open-minded as well, and if you have actual evidence, like performance monitor logs, system inquiry logs, traces, etc. indicating what precisely went awry when it "took long", "paused", etc. that indicate it is indeed a bug, or bugs, with the Database Manager app itself, I'll be the first to step up and declare it crap. As one of my long-time mentors would always say when someone would assume a cause without evidence, "we can know this, we just have to go looking". We can know because there exist many tools to trace and dive into what exactly goes wrong, when, and most importantly why. But without that, and no other verifiable testimony, I hate it when others assume what is to blame, especially when you're dealing with a complex problem, that has many possible factors that are much more likely the cause of the symptoms being reported.

I am certain, that if I could replicate any of the reported issues, I could dig in and determine why they occurred. But I don't have these issues. Which begs the question, "what is different for me than you?" Clearly, the Database Manager indeed works, or it wouldn't work for everybody. And without any of these users with issues doing that level of digging in, and having the result squarely pointed at the Database Manager, without making any assumptions, it is simply not right to declare it the problem. There are just too many other more likely possibilities for the reported symptoms.

And "trying things" is not troubleshooting. It is "try"ing things. We call it poking at the system. If you get the symptoms to disappear, do you know why? In a complex system, it takes tools that interrogate and look at what is happening with processes, memory, and other resources as they happen, and in what order, etc.

Finally, there is a very well-known debugging rule. It's not hard and fast, but it is a pretty good general rule. It says, if the symptom is consistent, it is likely software. If it is intermittent it is likely hardware. The symptoms being reported are clearly being reported as intermittent. I have said, and still maintain, the most probable cause of at least some of these reported issues is crappy thumb drives. Crappy ones, knock-offs, counterfeits, cheapies, whatever, will fail, and the mitigation circuitry on board can only do so much until they completely fail. They will all fail eventually. They are highly unreliable and become more so with age. But more importantly, if they are the cause, the symptoms experienced would likely be those that are being reported. The best defense here is high-quality drives that are for sure name brand and high speed (not just labeled as such because there are many counterfeits, even on Amazon).

This is who I am.
 

swatson999

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So all of the things you have written in that last post are, more or less, true and valid. But here's the thing...Data Manager is *consumer* software, meant to be sold to consumers, hopefully lots of them, thousands, tens of thousands hopefully, maybe more. That means it needs to be virtually bulletproof, and that takes solid engineering. What works in your lab is probably not going to work on the Swizzle 500 portable thing that some guy has, but, and here's the key...you have to *try* to make sure it does, and test it out as much as possible on as many platforms as you can. Otherwise, your customers are de facto your beta testers, and that's never good. And I wrote software for and lead teams that developed aviation and consumer software, too...believe me, even a 1% return rate was catastrophic to sales, reputation, and bottom line, so we took great pains to make sure our stuff worked.

Yeah, if I had the time or the inclination, I could spend days digging around in the logs and setting up test cases and mucking about trying to find the root cause of a hung DataManager process. But here's the thing: THAT AIN'T MY JOB. That's the job of the people writing and selling the software. I have enough to do trying to build systems that will work 24/7, around and off this planet, for decades. I have neither the time nor the inclination to solve someone else's problem...that's why *I paid them* for the software.

And we have another troubleshooting technique which you forgot...if the problem follows you from one platform or set of hardware to a distinctly different one, then it's probably NOT the hardware. I've had the same class of problems from SA on very high-end workstations attached to the best networks in the world, 2 different brands and 2 generations of each of high-end laptops, on home, office and hangar networks, etc., etc. I'm willing to bet they all don't have the same hardware "problem" that causes SA, and *only* SA, software to routinely hang up or misbehave. And here's another thing...it's not *just me*. Others have complained about this, as well.

I won't even bother to get into the weird, non-compliant with any interface spec I've seen for Windows, clunky interface they've built...

ETA: I should, in all fairness, add that these issues don't happen *every* time...they are intermittent, occurring probably once every 3-4 updates, sometimes more, sometimes less, and it's not always the same exact symptoms. Intermittent problems are a *bear* to track down, I know, but I think enough people have complained about the software for enough years that SA should have been aware of and resolved most of them, but most of their efforts appear to have gone into other products. Now that they've been acquired, I fully expect that DM will be end-of-lifed, anyway.
 
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RV8JD

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I just downloaded the latest SA charts today and I continue to have no problems with SA's Data Manager Program (as I posted in post #26).

I'm running the DM program on an iMac via Parallels VM running Windows 10, and using two different SanDisk Ultra 32GB USB 3.0 drives.

It would be interesting to find out why some folks have problems while many others don't.

(And you IT guys seriously need to chill. Go flying! ;))
 
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swatson999

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I only mention my experience with Garmin because I do have issues with their Garmin Express and database updating system. I've just come up with workarounds that keep me going quickly without having to spend the time troubleshooting that system.
Must be a fault of your equipment, not Garmin's software, right?
 

PilotMelch

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So all of the things you have written in that last post are, more or less, true and valid. But here's the thing...Data Manager is *consumer* software, meant to be sold to consumers, hopefully lots of them, thousands, tens of thousands hopefully, maybe more. That means it needs to be virtually bulletproof, and that takes solid engineering. What works in your lab is probably not going to work on the Swizzle 500 portable thing that some guy has, but, and here's the key...you have to *try* to make sure it does, and test it out as much as possible on as many platforms as you can. Otherwise, your customers are de facto your beta testers, and that's never good. And I wrote software for and lead teams that developed aviation and consumer software, too...believe me, even a 1% return rate was catastrophic to sales, reputation, and bottom line, so we took great pains to make sure our stuff worked.

Yeah, if I had the time or the inclination, I could spend days digging around in the logs and setting up test cases and mucking about trying to find the root cause of a hung DataManager process. But here's the thing: THAT AIN'T MY JOB. That's the job of the people writing and selling the software. I have enough to do trying to build systems that will work 24/7, around and off this planet, for decades. I have neither the time nor the inclination to solve someone else's problem...that's why *I paid them* for the software.

And we have another troubleshooting technique which you forgot...if the problem follows you from one platform or set of hardware to a distinctly different one, then it's probably NOT the hardware. I've had the same class of problems from SA on very high-end workstations attached to the best networks in the world, 2 different brands and 2 generations of each of high-end laptops, on home, office and hangar networks, etc., etc. I'm willing to bet they all don't have the same hardware "problem" that causes SA, and *only* SA, software to routinely hang up or misbehave. And here's another thing...it's not *just me*. Others have complained about this, as well.

I won't even bother to get into the weird, non-compliant with any interface spec I've seen for Windows, clunky interface they've built...
I agree it is consumer software and that it should be as "just plain works" as possible. That said, there remain dependent components to the work it does beyond its control; fully beyond its control. There isn't enough Kevlar in the universe (or retries) to help it recover from a consistent network failure, or a faulty USB drive that refuses to deny a write when it takes longer than X.

Bulletproof means that it has ways to handle faults from its dependent systems. But if they faulting, aren't they the fault?

First, you don't know what they tested and tried and how much they have put into it. You simply don't know. And the fact that some have issues, which can be with things out of their control (like what USB thumb drive is used and how healthy is it), then even the otherwise most bulletproof of systems will fail.

Second, your trials likely have something in common that is the root of your issues. It just stands to reason. Since there seems to be a consistency with your trials that is not experienced by others, of which there are many times more (hundreds more).

Yes, the interface is a bit odd, but that is the interface, and it is meant to be a background process anyway. I've written a lot of stuff that had a crappy interface put atop it by someone else. Not sure that means anything as far as functioning. But we could debate that. But I'm sure you'd agree the interface likely doesn't have anything to do with the issues you're experiencing, especially given the interface isn't even usually active when it does its work. I don't know that for sure of course, and I would not conclude that to be the case.

Anyway, we still haven't answered the question begged for, "Why are you having problems that many others aren't having?" There's something different. I'm just arguing that it may or may not be the Database Manager software and I've not yet seen any non-assumptive reasoning that there is a problem with it.
 

PilotMelch

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Must be a fault of your equipment, not Garmin's software, right?
You're not understanding what I said. Perhaps re-read?

I'm not blaming Garmin, or their software, or declaring it crap. They have a similar, and tough problem. They too are dealing with multiple data transfer streams, storage challenges, and other functions they are dependent on and have no control over, and synchronization in any system has its inherent challenges.
 

swatson999

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I'll flip your question around...why is SA software not operating properly, and all the others that I use are?

there seems to be a consistency with your trials that is not experienced by others, of which there are many times more (hundreds more).
You don't know this. You have no idea how many people have failures, but just reset the thing and keep going and live with it. And there are several ways in which the software has failed on me over the years, not just one.

This conversation is kind of at an end...you're determined to prove that all of my numerous systems, networks, and USB cards are conspiring to prevent SA from running properly intermittently. Fine. Whatever. As I've said, I do not have the time to go figure out what the root cause is. I'm content to live with a miscreant piece of software that annoys me once a month, and wish that Dynon would figure out a way to rid themselves of it, because the data is so nice to have in flight. But again...finding the cause of the failure in a piece of consumer software is NOT MY JOB.

For some reason, you've convinced yourself that there's no way it could be a software problem, and that's fine.
 

PilotMelch

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I'll flip your question around...why is SA software not operating properly, and all the others that I use are?


You don't know this. You have no idea how many people have failures, but just reset the thing and keep going and live with it. And there are several ways in which the software has failed on me over the years, not just one.

This conversation is kind of at an end...you're determined to prove that all of my numerous systems, networks, and USB cards are conspiring to prevent SA from running properly intermittently. Fine. Whatever. As I've said, I do not have the time to go figure out what the root cause is. I'm content to live with a miscreant piece of software that annoys me once a month, and wish that Dynon would figure out a way to rid themselves of it, because the data is so nice to have in flight. But again...finding the cause of the failure in a piece of consumer software is NOT MY JOB.

For some reason, you've convinced yourself that there's no way it could be a software problem, and that's fine.
Ok, we can end, but I'll end with this thought. The SA software seems to be working just fine, at least for me, while my highly tested and bulletproof iPad seems to have issues. I just can't think of what app to blame. Perhaps it's the one with the crappy interface.

I actually prefer to not blame any app or software vendor unless I have verifiable evidence to do so, which was always my only point.
 

swatson999

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Worst, and probably the most common, response from tech support (or mechanics, or parts suppliers, etc.):

"I've never seen that before." Or its common variation, "It's working fine for me."
 
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