I am SO sick of the SA app

[krw5927]

This is not new behavior. Seattle Avionics has never updated charts before they are current (midnight tonight). I don't believe they stated that they had changed this behavior when they made other stability improvements.

It's great to give them feedback that you need an option to download data sets ahead of time as a feature request, but as the system is currently designed the behavior you are seeing is as designed.

Dynon support, this is not true.  Please see reply #74 to this thread, where the CEO himself said that data should be available 1-2 days days before the new cycle starts.

His statement here is consistent with the website FAQ which also says data will be available 24-48 hours prior to the drop date.

Now our emails and phone calls are going unanswered.

What is happening, and can you help?

 

[Carl_Froehlich]

This is not new behavior. Seattle Avionics has never updated charts before they are current (midnight tonight). I don't believe they stated that they had changed this behavior when they made other stability improvements.

It's great to give them feedback that you need an option to download data sets ahead of time as a feature request, but as the system is currently designed the behavior you are seeing is as designed.

I acknowledge the Data Manager stability improvements of late. I also believe they have, in the past, pushed to get the updates out at least a day before expiration as I know many users have been asking for this.

At any rate, getting the update after expiration does me little good if I have to now spend 4 or so hours trying to update before I fly out in the morning.

I'm not trying to be difficult but I say again - why is this so hard?

Carl

 

[dynonsupport]

Thanks for the pointers that SA had said data would be available a few days before.

We talked to their CEO and he says they are late this month because of a large update to FlightGuide diagrams. They will be available later today along with an email describing the delay.

 

[krw5927]

Thank you for following up, Dynon Support!

Although it's a shame that SA allows Flightguide diagrams to also hold up VFR & IFR charts and plates. I can make a flight without the Flightguide diagrams. I can't without the charts and plates. What a pity. This company clearly needs some competition.

 

[airguy]

So in essence SA is saying "Sure, it will be available early, except for when it isn't."

That's comforting...

 

[krw5927]

Guess they finally got around to the emails:

"Hi there,

Have no fear, there is nothing wrong with your subscription. We're just a little bit behind on getting those charts out on time.

We've added nearly 4700 new and updated airport diagrams, so it's taken a little more time to update everything.

We should have the charts out by tomorrow!

Thank you for your patience!"

Gee, thanks for the new functionality that I didn't need, while holding back the charts and plates that I did. I wonder what 4700 new airport diagrams will do to my already excruciatingly-long download times.

 

[Garrett]

I am downloading now. I wish we had an option to get data ahead of time.

 

[GalinHdz]

I have tried to download the data 3 times today and I keep getting the same error messages. I even shut my computer off for 10 minutes and tried again. I keep getting:

Problem downloading Alabama.SEC.zip.  Will retry later.
Problem downloading Caribbean.SEC.zip.  Will retry later.
Preparing to retry downloading 1 files.
Problem downloading Alabama.SEC.zip.  Please try downloading again later.
Finishing downloads.
There was a problem installing Alabama to the memory stick/card.
There was a problem installing Caribbean to the memory stick/card.


On the Data Manager VFR Sectional Charts section still shows
Device: Exp. 2/3/16 Computer: Exp. Unknown

Is anybody else having this problem?

 

[stevepo]

4700 New Airport Diagrams

Dear Dynon SkyView Pilot,

Thanks for the patience with this download cycle.  As you know, we generally make the data available the Monday or Tuesday the week of a data cycle change.  We had to delay that until today for the very good reason below -- nearly 5000 new airport diagrams!  In any event, the data was made available before the 1602 data cycle began (technically starts at 12:01 AM East Coast on Thursday AM) and we'll be back to our normal earlier release date next cycle.

Now -- on to the good stuff!

Note: We sent basically this same information to all Dynon users by email and posted it as an entry to our Blog.  Those versions include some graphics that describe this better.  See: https://seattleavionics.wordpress.com/2016/02/03/almost-5000-new-airport-diagrams/

As you probably know, the FAA publishes diagrams for just 700 or so airports although there are more than 5,000 public-use airports in the US.  In all likelihood, your favorite airports just don't get the love they deserve from the FAA.

But starting today, Seattle Avionics is providing very detailed, high-quality airport diagrams for nearly 4,700 US airports.  These new diagrams, called "SA Diagrams," automatically replace the old Flight Guide diagrams you may have now.  The SA Diagrams show FBO and fuel service locations as well as runways and taxiways.  See the attachment for an example.

Dynon SkyView pilots are among the very first people to get these new diagrams.  They're also available now in our FlyQ Online web-based flight planning system for the PC and Mac.  And very soon, they'll be in FlyQ EFB for the iPad.  But Dynon users got them first!

Getting the new diagrams is as easy as it gets -- just download the monthly ChartData in the usual way and the new SA Diagrams will automatically replace the old Flight Guide diagrams.

The new SA Diagrams are created with data from many different sources then created, verified, and published by Seattle Avionics.  The same ChartData team at Seattle Avionics that provides the FAA-certified DO-200A quality approach plates you have now is working on these new diagrams.

We Need Your Help!

As this is the first release of this data, we expect to find errors and inconsistencies on many of the diagrams.  In fact, there is a web page with a list of SA Diagrams with known issues.

Producing these diagrams involves more than just relying on government sources.  In particular, we get feedback from FBOs, airport managers, and, most importantly, pilots like you. 

Therefore, we ask that you take a look at the SA Diagram for your home airport and other favorite airports and provide us feedback.

If you're at your computer, just go to FlyQ Online (http://flyq.seattleavionics.com) and enter the ident of your favorite airports.

You'll see a small version of the new SA Diagram after you select the airport from the search results.  If the airport has an FAA diagram, you'll actually see both diagrams.  Click the one on the right side of the airport info to see it on the large pane next to the airport (where the map normally is).

If you find a problem or want to add your favorite FBO, just email us with the details and we'll take it from there.  Support@seattleavionics.com

Enjoy!

- The ChartData Team at Seattle Avionics

 

[stevepo]

Actually that's not accurate. We generally release new data on Monday or Tuesday on weeks with a data cycle and have done so for 15 years. In fact, for apps and devices that do not use the new Seattle Avionics diagrams, we did release the data on Monday. And now that the enormous effort of getting the first release of the Seattle Avionics Diagrams out the door, we'll be back to Monday or Tuesday next month. We apologize for any problem or confusion this caused.

Steve

 

[Garrett]

Thank You Steve P. for the explanation. My downloads worked as expected once the data was released.

 

[GalinHdz]

I tried the downloads today and everything worked. I no longer get the error messages and the expiration dates are correct.

 

[krw5927]

Steve, why was the data we need to be legal for flights held back for the data we didn't need to stay legal?  This was a poor decision.

It's great that you added new whiz-bang technology, but you did it at the expense of the core product - the very reason people bought your data service to begin with.

As you can see from just this forum, a lot of people wasted a lot of time discovering, and then trying to solve, what we thought was a problem.  You could've saved all that by sending us (and letting Dynon post) a quick note that things would be delayed.  You knew you wouldn't have the data out in time but chose not to take this one simple step. 

The whole thing is just inconsiderate.

 

[jauen]

Paper maps, E6B, Pencil.

Cheaper, faster, easier, less frustration. Reliable.

This application interface is archaic. The data arrives with errors ("will try later"). When it does mysteriously succeed downloading it doesn't always copy to the USB stick. Is this Beta software?

As I understand, the solution is uninstall everything, reinstall everything and redownload everything. BTW that doesn't always work either. And using the uninstall program in Windows doesn't actually uninstall everything. You need to dig through nested folders to find files with long cryptic names too.

Is this beta software?

 

[jauen]

Latest try:

1.2 hours

28 "will try later" errors
All errors successful after retry

Flight Guide Airport Diagrams - Green on Computer and Device
Approach Plates and Airport Diagrams - Green on Computer and Device
VFR Sectional Charts- Green on Computer Yellow on Device

Status says "Update Process Complete.

I tried updating again. No change.

How do I get the program to update the VFR Sectionals?

 

[stevepo]

Thanks for the comments, folks.

Please let me address a few issues:

1. In retrospect, I wish we had emailed folks about the new diagrams the delay in data release a day earlier. We were waiting for the data to go live on FlyQ Online so you could actually see the new diagrams before describing them in a vacuum. We should have also posted something here ahead of time. We're sorry about that and will do if anything similar every comes up again.

2. ChartData expires every 4th Thursday at 12:01 AM Eastern time. Although we released the data for this cycle a few days later than usual to get the new SA Diagrams to replace the ancient Flight Guide diagrams, the data was released in advance of the new cycle and would be downloaded and installed to your USB stick automatically if you had the DM running in the background (see item below on this). There seems to be some confusion where folks think the data is already expired on Wednesday. In fact, it's equally against FAA regs to use the new data early as it is to use old data after the cycle starts.

3. We held the release of all data for Dynon (and FlyQ EFB, btw) until the new SA Diagrams were in because we're certain that we would have had complaints from customers if we released some data but not all at the same time. That is, past experience indicates that we would have read something like "Hey, my plates and sectionals updated but my Flight Guide diagrams did not. What the heck? What's wrong?" Most people prefer to do a data update just once.

4. Please, please, please email support@seattleavionics.com if you have a problem. Posting to a forum run by Dynon or calling Dynon rather than Seattle Avionics doesn't get the question answered. And when you do email us, please check your Spam and Junk folders for the reply as it's incredible how many times we hear of a customer saying that we didn't get back to them when, in fact, we did and the reply is in Spam or Junk folder. It's frustrating for both customers and our tech support team that the influx of spam has made legitimate email get blocked so often.

5. "Will Try Later" is NOT an error message and most definitely does not indicate a bug or "beta" software -- rather the exact opposite, actually. We'll probably remove the message from the the next DM release because of the confusion. It simply means what it says -- a particular file did not download correctly due to a transient problem (generally) with the worldwide data distribution system we use - and it will be tried again in a few minutes. This is akin to the error correction system used for all data packets on the Internet that checks for errors and retries automatically. Ditto with something called a CRC error correction system used for CDs and similar to what your TV's HDMI interface uses to check for errors and retry automatically. We download 3 files at a time and sometimes (typically 3-10 times out of 17000) a file glitches so we pick it up later. This is a HUGE feature that makes it fast to download (3x) 99% of the time and uses a slower method to get the files it has a problem with. A feature like this does not indicate beta software but software that has been battle-tested and made extremely fault-tolerate and auto-correcting. I wish we never added the "Will try again" message, however, and just did it silently.

6. The DM is designed to run automatically in the background. It checks for new data every few hours and downloads it automatically. If you have your USB stick in your PC, it even copies it automatically to the card. You do NOT need to fire-up the Data Manager and watch it download and copy. By default, it installs that way and you can confirm this by clicking the Options button in the DM and making sure that "Automatically start when Windows launches" is ON.

As always, we appreciate hearing from you and learning how we can do better. And do please take a look at the new diagrams from http://flyq.seattleavionics.com as they are a really large improvement over the old Flight Guide diagrams. Feel free to email me directly if you have other comments or questions.

Sincerely,
Steve Podradchik
CEO
stevep@seattleavionics.com

 

[jauen]

I've contacted SA Support and submitted a log report. Waiting to hear back.

It would be nice to have a Seattle Avionics forum. As evidenced by this one, pilots do help pilots and can take the pressure off of tech support.

I'm curious: assuming a modern Windows machine and a 3.0USB stick, how long should it take to update charts if nothing goes wrong? I am trying to update three USB sticks for my 3, seven inch sky view systems. I have 6+ hours in so far and VFR Sectionals have not been updated on any of them.

Unrelated: The new detailed diagrams are terrific.

One last thing: I appreciate that the long downloads and updates can take place in the background but I purchased a Windows laptop for the sole purpose of updating charts. Therefore there is no "background" for me. Also, since Dynon requires a separate USB stick for each screen, the other two cannot happen in the background anyway. Somehow there has to be a better/faster way to update.

 

[dynonsupport]

Jeff:

It depends on whether the SA data is fully downloaded to your PC (if not, the speed of your Internet connection is a factor), and whether the USB port on your computer is USB 3.0; a USB 3.0 USB flash drive IS faster, even on a USB 2.0 port, but it's fastEST when it's plugged into a USB 3.0 port.

Given your situation, it may be faster to just update one USB flash drive, copy that to the laptop's hard disk (hopefully it's an SSD which are really fast), and then copy back from the hard disk/ SSD to the other two USB flash drives. That way, assuming the download is already resident on the laptop, it's the work of tens of minutes to update all three in one session.

<snip>

I'm curious: assuming a modern Windows machine and a 3.0USB stick, how long should it take to update charts if nothing goes wrong? I am trying to update three USB sticks for my 3, seven inch sky view systems. I have 6+ hours in so far and VFR Sectionals have not been updated on any of them.

Unrelated: The new detailed diagrams are terrific.

One last thing: I appreciate that the long downloads and updates can take place in the background but I purchased a Windows laptop for the sole purpose of updating charts. Therefore there is no "background" for me. Also, since Dynon requires a separate USB stick for each screen, the other two cannot happen in the background anyway. Somehow there has to be a better/faster way to update.

 

[jauen]

So assume the files have been downloaded and you have 3.0USB on the computer and the stick. How long should it take to initially load the data, let's include IFR and do everything just for the sake of argument?

 

[jlakins]

Jeff
On my 6 year old desktop with a usb 3.0 card installed and usb 3.0 thumb drives it typically takes about 17 to 20 minutes to update each thumb drive.
I have the SA app running in the background so the data is already downloaded to my desktop.
When it is time to update I normally leave the computer on overnight so the data is there when I am ready to use it.
If I am travelling I temporarily change the power settings on my laptop so it can run over night and the data is available the next morning.

Jimmie
RV-9A