Dynon ADS-B for Skyview

[lolachampcar]

Crap (for Winter technically starting Dec. 21)

Yippee for Dynon saying Winter starts come December. I'm not good at waiting (a bit of a brat I suppose) but I can wait a little over a month.

Thanks Guys!

 

[dynonsupport]

Yeah, to be clear (and that's why there's a link embedded in the last post), it's going to be December, if all goes to according to schedule. Probably not the very beginning of Dec, to be clearer. And of course, nothing gets released until it passes our testing milestones. So any timeframe is our best engineering estimate, and we do our best to hit them, and we're occasionally off by some amount of days

 

[lolachampcar]

Quality first then delivery..... the Dynon way. I'm ok with that. Thanks for narrowing it down.

 

[flybuddy]

Since the release will be later rather than sooner (sooner was promised at Oshkosh) can you reconsider releasing the transponder update (DO260B) at an earlier date? I've had my Skyview for nearly 3 years. It didn't do a whole bunch of things when i bought it. In some regards it did less than your legacy units at that time. I purchased it because i saw the potential of the unit and, as a long time Dynon customer i trusted you to deliver on the promised enhancements. Aviation is full of broken promises BUT Dynon is a cut above and has delivered on most. Weather for the Skyview is obviously a big ticket item. I have had to purchase other manufacturers products to fill that gap. If DO260B were done i would at least be able to get traffic prior to your ADSB launch.

 

[dynonsupport]

We promised Fall 2012 at Oshkosh, and we still believe we will make that. Not "by Fall" but "during Fall."

The transponder update is certified and cannot be rushed or released early. I'm still confident we'll have the second DO-260B transponder on the market (Trig TT22/21 are first).

 

[mikehoover]

Will there be a firmware update coming out along with the ADS-B unit? If so, any hint as to what new stuff will be included with the firmware update? ;D

 

[dynonsupport]

Everything that we are promising in this update is ADS-B related. Support for our ADS-B receiver, as well as updates to the transponder for newer ADS-B standards.

We are hoping to get a few other nice features in there, but we won't know for sure if they are ready for a few weeks, so we don't want to make any promises right now.

 

[flybuddy]

We promised Fall 2012 at Oshkosh, and we still believe we will make that. Not "by Fall" but "during Fall."

The transponder update is certified and cannot be rushed or released early. I'm still confident we'll have the second DO-260B transponder on the market (Trig TT22/21 are first).

Not sure I understand, Dynon has quoted multiple times on the forum that the transponders are DO-260B certified. Two quotes below:

"You actually don't have ADS-B out via your 330 right now. The 330 is not DO-260B certified like our transponder is"

"By combining the SV-ADSB-470 with Dynon’s existing SV-XPNDR-261 Mode-S transponder module with ADS-B out, reliable, accurate traffic will be provided to the SkyView system, even without a certified GPS on board. The ADS-B system requires the aircraft to be ADS-B OUT equipped before traffic information is provided, and Dynon’s Transponder is fully DO-260B / ADS-B out certified so SkyView owners will receive a complete traffic picture any time ADS-B services are available. Nearby traffic that is a threat will generate an audio alert so that the pilot does not need to keep looking at the screen to be alerted to nearby aircraft..."

If you are NOT DO-260B compliant yet then surely there is little chance of a release this year. The quote from Support below is well over a year old.

"SkyView Discussion / SkyView General Discussion / Re: Dynon transponder IFR certification
on: Aug 10th, 2011 at 11:42am
Started by mikehoover | Post by Dynon Support
Dynon's transponder carries USA and European certifications.

Certification:
ETSO 2C112b, C166a and TSO C112c, C166a, approved for IFR and VFR flight

Compliance:
ED-73B, ED-14F/DO-160F, DO-178B, DO-254 level C, DO-260A class BO, DO-181C

We will have a software update here shortly that moves it to DO-260B, the latest revision of the ADS-B standard."

 

[dynonsupport]

The DO-260B update for the transponder will be in the release that goes along with the ADS-B receiver. They are tied together. We will not release one without the other. The release is on schedule for Fall 2012. I don't know what else we can tell you.

If you feel like you purchased the transponder with a promise that it would be updated to DO-260B within a certain timeframe and that timeframe has not been met, give us a call and we discuss a return.

 

[lolachampcar]

Aviation is full of broken promises BUT Dynon is a cut above and has delivered on most.

I am more impatient than most but I recognize the quality of the product and the difficulty of making engineering/development/manufacturing schedules perform on a desired time line.  I think we all (customers) would do well to acknowledge Dynon's efforts and cut them some slack.  I believe they deserve it.   ......  obviously just my opinion.......

 

[Jim_Lee]

I understand that the Dynon ADS-B receiver will not have bluetooth connectivity in order to transmit to an iPad or similar device. Is this in Dynon's future? This would be an awesome addition.

 

[lolachampcar]

What was the thought in building a single band receiver? I would have thought that ship to ship information would have been usefull but then I am no expert on ADS-B.

 

[jeffa]

What was the thought in building a single band receiver?  I would have thought that ship to ship information would have been usefull but then I am no expert on ADS-B.

Dynon will certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the Skyview transponder will act as the ship-to-ship (ADS-B) receiver.  The SV-ADSB-470 will be the receiver for TIS-B and ADS-R. 

Or do you only get air-to-air from other 978 equipped aircraft?  Now I'm not sure, and I'm starting to confuse the issue.... :-/

EDIT - Forget what I said.  Here is some info from a different manufacturers website:

"Dual receiver:

When your ADS-B transmitter sends the message to the ground system, it specifies which frequency receiver you have installed.  The ground system then sends traffic data which contains radar targets (TIS-B) and any ADS-B targets that are transmitting on the other frequency (ADS-R).  Theoretically then, you get other ADS-B traffic directly through your receiver and everything else from the ground system.  In other words, you only need a single band receiver to theoretically get a 100% picture of traffic around you.

In most cases this works.  If you opt for a 978 receiver you get free weather (FIS-B) and the ground system gives you radar traffic and 1090 ADS-B traffic.  If you go with a 1090 receiver you get radar traffic and 978 ADS-B traffic but no weather – which is a 978-only feature.

There is one scenario where this breaks down – that is if you are out of ADS-B coverage, or there is an aircraft in your area that is out of ADS-B coverage and which is transmitting on the frequency that you cannot receive.  In this case a dual band receiver ensures you pick up all ADS-B traffic . The FAA is guaranteeing ADS-B coverage wherever there is radar coverage today – and in most places there will be more ADS-B coverage than radar, so this is generally not a big issue.  However, there are places like the Gulf Coast where you could imagine an IFR encounter between an aircraft (say 1090 equipped) descending out of ADS-B coverage and somebody running VFR very close the ground transmitting on 978.  In this case a dual band receiver would pick up the VFR guy directly and would be a real safety benefit.

If you are out of coverage you will not get TIS-B anyway so the dual band receiver adds some targets but until everybody is ADS-B equipped you still have an incomplete traffic picture.

The downside to a dual band receiver would be cost and the complexity of sorting out which targets you are seeing both as direct targets and as rebroadcast (ADS-R) targets.  Because there is latency (up to 2 seconds) in the ADS-R message, there is the risk of doubling and ghosting.   This complexity adds more cost and (much worse) complicates the certification process since the manufacturer has to prove to the FAA that this is being handled correctly.  A single band receiver does not have this problem."

 

[flybuddy]

What was the thought in building a single band receiver?  I would have thought that ship to ship information would have been usefull but then I am no expert on ADS-B.

Single band is fine. The DO-260B update to the transponder will allow for the 978 receiver to retrieve traffic info for both 1090 and 978. Currently, the 260A status only allows for 1090es traffic (the frequency that the transponder broadcasts on).

 

[lolachampcar]

So, if I read the above correctly the Dynon solution only "sees" traffic that is rebroadcast by ground based stations. The argument for certification when targets can be provided by both ground and airbore (same) sources makes sense. Most traffic will not have ADS-B for a while so it really is a non-issue.
Thanks

 

[dynonsupport]

Since we receive on 978, it sees the ADS-R rebroadcasted data, and also 978 out-equipped aircraft directly. That effectively means "all ADS-B out equipped traffic + traffic seen on ATC's radar (when in radar coverage)" when you're in an ADS-B service area, and if you're not, you'll see 978 out equipped traffic only.

All of the receiving happens on the SV-ADSB-470 side of things. The transponder is only the ADS-B out (transmitting) device.

 

[swatson999]

The soonest that you could answer the following question, the easier my life will be in terms of avoiding pulling panels, interior, etc., in a month or two to install new wiring

I currently have a 430W which has GPS RS-232 Out 1 split, 1 line going to the SV ARINC 429 module, the other going t othe SV XPDR (wired that way in anticipation of future upgrades).

There's a post over on VAF that says, however:

"You will use one of the serial ports and there is one more option in set up called "ADS-B" that then pushes those compliant packets out.. It is not a few more packets in "aviation out" that you already have hooked up... "

This looks to me that I will need to change that connection to be as follows:

GPS RS-232 out 1 -> ARINC 429, Aviation Out data format
GPS RS-232 out 2 -> XV XPDR, ADS-B data format

Do you know if this is true, or will your firmware update support ADS-B format to both the ARINC module and the XPDR? (Which, of course, would be easiest for me ).

TIA for any info you can provide...I know this is fairly new, and you're working as quickly as you can to accommodate this Garmin upgrade.

Steve

 

[dynonsupport]

Yes, that's our current expectation, that you'll need to use two different serial outs. One for the transponder ADS-B compliant format, and another to feed Aviation data to the ARINC module.

 

[swatson999]

Thanks...that gives me a small task to perform this weekend in preparation for the new ADS-B firmware from Garmin and your ADS-B box

 

[rogersmart]

Yes, that's our current expectation, that you'll need to use two different serial outs. One for the transponder ADS-B compliant format, and another to feed Aviation data to the ARINC module.

Does the GNS-430 have the "ADS-B compliant format" as a selection in the existing software (not sure of version) or
is the "ADS-B compliant format" only available after the software version 5.0 is installed accrding to Garmin SB 1225.